# If there is a Devil, wouldn't he be pretending to be God? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 15, 2008, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-is-a-devil-wouldnt-he-be-pretending-to-be-god/437824 "2008-02-15T22:51:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Omegaman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e480ec/32.png) [@Omegaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omegaman)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2008, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-is-a-devil-wouldnt-he-be-pretending-to-be-god/437824/61 "2008-02-18T02:51:40Z")
[QUOTE=Poor College Student] The “we’ll see” line is the worst for good logical debates, IMO. It proves absolutely nothing and gives just as much evidence for your case. I can say, “Oh you’ll see when we die, I was right about that Flying Spaghetti Monster. We’ll see.” With just as much credit and support to the statement. Actually, I’d like to compare the “We’ll see.” line to the “History will decide.” line I’ve heard when some people defend Bush’s presidency. I think they correlate wonderfully. [/QUOTE] In my life I’ve been in hundreds of fights. You know what? It’s all talk till it’s over. There’s nothing to debate. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2008, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-is-a-devil-wouldnt-he-be-pretending-to-be-god/437824/62 "2008-02-18T04:18:46Z")
> [@](#): > > And wouldn’t he have gotten someone (or ones) to write a (the) Bible and have all of mankind worship him (It sounds like a Devilish ego) and declare war in his name and convert natives in his name, etc. So, all this time that people thought they were worshipping God, they were really worshipping the devil. > > I mean, wouldn’t the Devil glory in all of the different religions and confusion/hate they have engendered. I always figured that the Devil’s best strategy would be to convince people that he doesn’t exist. Let’s face it, if I were contemplating committing some sinful act and Satan suddenly appeared before me and offered to help me in exchange for my soul, my response would not be to accept the deal. Instead, I’d be amazed by this clear proof of the existence of the Devil and an afterlife and I’d immediately become a devout Christian who’d never break another commandment and would devote the rest of my life to getting into heaven when I died. If Satan’s smart he makes sure to stay behind the curtains. He’d simply put opportunities to sin out there for people to act upon without fearing the theological consequences. They’re be no explict contract for their souls, but these sinners would be handing them over unknowingly. ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2008, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-is-a-devil-wouldnt-he-be-pretending-to-be-god/437824/63 "2008-02-18T05:33:11Z")
[QUOTE=Baudelaire] “My dear brethren, do not ever forget, when you hear the progress of lights praised, that the loveliest trick of the Devil is to persuade you that he does not exist!” [/QUOTE] [The Generous Gambler](http://worldlibrary.net/eBooks/WorldeBookLibrary.com/gengamb.htm) ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2008, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-is-a-devil-wouldnt-he-be-pretending-to-be-god/437824/64 "2008-02-18T12:12:43Z")
[QUOTE=Genghis Bob] I’m sure you can provide cites for the bolded part? [/QUOTE] I can. > [@](#): > > "My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. > > ``` > -Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942) > > ``` > [@](#): > > Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord. > > -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf- Volume 1, Chapter 2, Years of Study and Suffering in Vienna) ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2008, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-is-a-devil-wouldnt-he-be-pretending-to-be-god/437824/65 "2008-02-18T12:59:35Z")
As Al Pacino said in _The Devils Advocate_ “With him (Satan) you know where you stand, Gods up there laughing his ass off” ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2008, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-is-a-devil-wouldnt-he-be-pretending-to-be-god/437824/66 "2008-02-18T21:31:36Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] I can. [/QUOTE] and he was wrong… ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2008, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-is-a-devil-wouldnt-he-be-pretending-to-be-god/437824/67 "2008-02-18T21:52:03Z")
[QUOTE=Maastricht] At least in the Netherland, that isn’t true. Apart from the fact that our state’s social security eliminates a lot of need for charity, most other charity is done by non-religious or religiously neutral organisations, such as the Red Cross or one of the many other non-religious charities here. And the mainly atheistic population of Holland doesn’t give any less to charity then the inhabitants of other more religious countries. My point is that charity and religion needn’t have much to do with one another. [/QUOTE] I wish all countries had a social security system as good as yours. So I agree in your country the need is not so great. But in the rest of the world it is great. Religions in America provide the homeless with food and shelter along with many other works. It is what religions do, they were told to do so by Jesus, to feed the poor, and clothe the needy. Many of our school children need school supplies and lunches, etc. It is being done on a world wide basis, it is good works. Who else would do it? Now it may be true that charity and religion needn’t have much to do with one another, but the reality is religions do most of the charity work. ---
**Author:** ![Genghis\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/45deac/32.png) [@Genghis\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Genghis_Bob)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2008, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-is-a-devil-wouldnt-he-be-pretending-to-be-god/437824/68 "2008-02-18T22:06:54Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] and he was wrong… [/QUOTE] Or lying. There are also sources illustrating Hitler’s antipathy for Christianity and the Church. My understanding had always been that his aim was to establish a uniquely German religion based on the “old gods” of the glorious aryan pagan past. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2008, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-is-a-devil-wouldnt-he-be-pretending-to-be-god/437824/69 "2008-02-19T02:38:16Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] and he was wrong… [/QUOTE] Whether or not he believed it, he knew that the German people would accept his tying of Christianity to hatred, and he was right about that. Obviously not all, but there was hardly a revolt of the Christians in Germany - if there was, he wouldn’t have been elected and wouldn’t have lasted long. It’s not like he ever hid his feelings, after all. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2008, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-is-a-devil-wouldnt-he-be-pretending-to-be-god/437824/70 "2008-02-19T09:08:38Z")
[QUOTE=Genghis Bob] Or lying. There are also sources illustrating Hitler’s antipathy for Christianity and the Church. My understanding had always been that his aim was to establish a uniquely German religion based on the “old gods” of the glorious aryan pagan past. [/QUOTE] No doubt you have a bunch of cites for this understanding then. But the Holocaust was carried out by Christians in a Christian nation and was the terrible culmination of centuries of Jewish persecution by Christians. ---
**Author:** ![Genghis\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/45deac/32.png) [@Genghis\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Genghis_Bob)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2008, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-is-a-devil-wouldnt-he-be-pretending-to-be-god/437824/71 "2008-02-19T12:12:34Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] No doubt you have a bunch of cites for this understanding then. But the Holocaust was carried out by Christians in a Christian nation and was the terrible culmination of centuries of Jewish persecution by Christians. [/QUOTE] [Here’s one to start](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mhitlerchristian.html). As Cecil alludes, it was also carried out by Germans in a German nation and was the terrible culmination of decades of Jewish persecution by Germans. Not picking on the Germans, just pointing out that there are lots of facets to the character of a man as well as a nation, and I suspect it was nationalism expressed as National Socialism that drove the Holocaust more than a religious motivation. And I suppose it goes without saying that people who would perpetrate such a horror may \*label \* themselves as Christians when it’s convenient for them, but I seriously doubt that Christ himself would recognize them. ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2008, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-is-a-devil-wouldnt-he-be-pretending-to-be-god/437824/72 "2008-02-19T12:58:04Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] No doubt you have a bunch of cites for this understanding then. But the Holocaust was carried out by Christians in a Christian nation and was the terrible culmination of centuries of Jewish persecution by Christians. [/QUOTE] Christians had certainly made the ground fertile for Hitler. Consider Martin Luther’s cheery little tract, [“On the Jews and Their Lies”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jews_and_Their_Lies): > [@wiki](#): > > In the treatise, Luther wrote that the Jews are a “base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth.” They are full of the “devil’s feces … which they wallow in like swine,” and the synagogue is an “incorrigible whore and an evil slut …” He argues that their synagogues and schools should be set on fire, their prayer books destroyed, rabbis forbidden to preach, homes razed, and property and money confiscated. They should be shown no mercy or kindness, afforded no legal protection, and these “poisonous envenomed worms” should be drafted into forced labor or expelled for all time. He also seems to advocate their murder, writing “[w]e are at fault in not slaying them.” ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2008, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-is-a-devil-wouldnt-he-be-pretending-to-be-god/437824/73 "2008-02-19T14:22:50Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] Whether or not he believed it, he knew that the German people would accept his tying of Christianity to hatred, and he was right about that. Obviously not all, but there was hardly a revolt of the Christians in Germany - if there was, he wouldn’t have been elected and wouldn’t have lasted long. It’s not like he ever hid his feelings, after all. [/QUOTE] To me Christianity is the teachings of Jesus, and while many many claim to be Christians only those that actually follow Jesus’ teachings will understand they are to love one another and not kill each other. Atrocities have been committed in the name of religions, race, nationality, and every other idea that divides and separates the people of the world. But it is the master teachers preaching love one another that can stabilize and provide a place for all people to meet in harmony and love. That day will arrive when fear has been replaced by love. ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2008, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-is-a-devil-wouldnt-he-be-pretending-to-be-god/437824/74 "2008-02-19T14:41:57Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] But it is the master teachers preaching love one another that can stabilize and provide a place for all people to meet in harmony and love. That day will arrive when fear has been replaced by love. [/QUOTE] Well, as far as I can tell, the master teacher is at the bottom of a 2,000 year slump. Let me know when we can expect this outbreak of love. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2008, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-is-a-devil-wouldnt-he-be-pretending-to-be-god/437824/75 "2008-02-19T14:42:23Z")
[QUOTE=Genghis Bob] And I suppose it goes without saying that people who would perpetrate such a horror may \*label \* themselves as Christians when it’s convenient for them, but I seriously doubt that Christ himself would recognize them. [/QUOTE] And were all the Germans implementing the policy in their tens of thousands also pretending? Or are we in ‘no true scotsman’ territory? Jewish persecution in western europe is historically a christian project and the Holocaust a culmination of it. ---
**Author:** ![Genghis\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/45deac/32.png) [@Genghis\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Genghis_Bob)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2008, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-is-a-devil-wouldnt-he-be-pretending-to-be-god/437824/76 "2008-02-19T15:04:16Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] And were all the Germans implementing the policy in their tens of thousands also pretending? Or are we in ‘no true scotsman’ territory? Jewish persecution in western europe is historically a christian project and the Holocaust a culmination of it. [/QUOTE] I don’t think “no true scotsman” applies, as mass murder is pretty clearly antithetical to the Christian message. So yeah, I’m okay with saying that those who participated in the Holocaust were not living the Christian Way. And those who harbored Jews or resisted in any way they were able, were following the way. It’s that whole “by their fruits you shall know them” thing. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2008, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-is-a-devil-wouldnt-he-be-pretending-to-be-god/437824/77 "2008-02-19T15:10:11Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] To me Christianity is the teachings of Jesus, and while many many claim to be Christians only those that actually follow Jesus’ teachings will understand they are to love one another and not kill each other. [/QUOTE] Interesting. Would you say that a person who thought that killing was sometimes necessarily was a “true” Christian? ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2008, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-is-a-devil-wouldnt-he-be-pretending-to-be-god/437824/78 "2008-02-19T15:10:28Z")
[QUOTE=Genghis Bob] It’s that whole “by their fruits you shall know them” thing. [/QUOTE] Sorry, but “by their fruits you shall know them” is basically a summary of the ‘no true Scotsman’ strategy. Go read Martin Luther’s [On the Jews and Their Lies.](http://www.humanitas-international.org/showcase/chronography/documents/luther-jews.htm) Nobody can deny that he was a Christian. But he advocated ethnic cleansing against the Jews. This is the historical and religious background against which we must understand the rise of Nazism. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2008, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-is-a-devil-wouldnt-he-be-pretending-to-be-god/437824/79 "2008-02-19T16:24:10Z")
I find it amusing when I hear some Christians proclaim that the devil is capable of fooling people, but not capable of fooling _them_. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2008, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-is-a-devil-wouldnt-he-be-pretending-to-be-god/437824/80 "2008-02-19T17:11:31Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] To me Christianity is the teachings of Jesus, and while many many claim to be Christians only those that actually follow Jesus’ teachings will understand they are to love one another and not kill each other. Atrocities have been committed in the name of religions, race, nationality, and every other idea that divides and separates the people of the world. But it is the master teachers preaching love one another that can stabilize and provide a place for all people to meet in harmony and love. That day will arrive when fear has been replaced by love. [/QUOTE] Maybe, but there are precious few real Christians then. Plus, as far as I can tell, you are not mainstream - and that is a compliment, if you were wondering. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-is-a-devil-wouldnt-he-be-pretending-to-be-god/437824.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-is-a-devil-wouldnt-he-be-pretending-to-be-god/437824.md?page=5)