# If there is a God - Meh. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 26, 2005, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-is-a-god-meh/286666 "2005-01-26T00:22:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58956e/32.png) [@Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoodoo_Ulove)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-is-a-god-meh/286666/41 "2005-01-27T19:53:52Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > In my belief, The word God, just means,being,or what ever exists.Monavis Following your definition, to be an atheist one would have to believe nothing exists, and theists need only believe that anything exists. If I am to believe or disbelieve in a god, I need something a bit more substantive in the way of a definition. ---
**Author:** ![EvanS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@EvanS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EvanS)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-is-a-god-meh/286666/42 "2005-01-27T21:53:07Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > If there is a god(which I don’t think we have any reason to believe, ya know magic vs natural processes and all that) it is quite the jerk for doing such a terrible job of taking care of it’s creation. Heads being sawed off etc. Could just swipe us all up to salvation. But nooo…oh wait…shh… “he works in mysterious ways.” Seems pretty arrogant to try to imbue a “supreme being” with human traits. > [@ArrogantHumanoid](#): > > “Oh no, God should be _this_ way, and if it isn’t then there is obviously no such thing as God.” ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-is-a-god-meh/286666/43 "2005-01-27T22:08:38Z")
> [@](#): > > No, if you want hell on earth try Northwest England. Oi! ---
**Author:** ![Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58956e/32.png) [@Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoodoo_Ulove)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-is-a-god-meh/286666/44 "2005-01-27T22:09:55Z")
> [@EvanS](#): > > Seems pretty arrogant to try to imbue a “supreme being” with human traits. So, if we agree that we cannot know the nature of a god, how can we have an opinion as to said god’s existence? ---
**Author:** ![EvanS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@EvanS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EvanS)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-is-a-god-meh/286666/45 "2005-01-27T22:19:45Z")
> [@Hoodoo Ulove](#): > > So, if we agree that we cannot know the nature of a god, how can we have an opinion as to said god’s existence? How can we have an opinion? Easy. Look around; many people have opinions on things they don’t have any knowledge of. Maybe most people. My daddy usta say, “Opinions are like assholes: everybody has one, but no one wants to hear anyone else’s.” Pardon my rudeness. Ev 4 EvR ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-is-a-god-meh/286666/46 "2005-01-27T22:53:12Z")
**EvanS** , what does “created in his image” mean? Anyway, I think it’s more like god was “created” in man’s image. ---
**Author:** ![EvanS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@EvanS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EvanS)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-is-a-god-meh/286666/47 "2005-01-28T06:35:21Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > **EvanS** , what does “created in his image” mean? > > Anyway, I think it’s more like god was “created” in man’s image. If you want an answer for that, you should ask the men who wrote it, or those who believe it, not me. Judeo-Christianity isn’t the only religion around, you know, although in San Antonio that may not be a popular position. Few religions have God creating Man “in His image.” And a vast majority of religions have gods who are not in man’s image either. If there is a god, then that god is the way it is in spite of what we mere mortals believe or disbelieve. As far as illusions about god and its existance, with all the different descriptions and attributes about god the odds have it that most of them are wrong. (If not all of them…) So, what’s your point? EvanAgain ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-is-a-god-meh/286666/48 "2005-01-28T07:24:06Z")
**EvanS** , I was addressing your comment re arrogance and imbuing human traits on a “supreme being.” Thought you were taking a Xian stance. Confused here 😕 ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-is-a-god-meh/286666/49 "2005-01-28T11:36:07Z")
> [@Hoodoo Ulove](#): > > Following your definition, to be an atheist one would have to believe nothing exists, and theists need only believe that anything exists. If I am to believe or disbelieve in a god, I need something a bit more substantive in the way of a definition. I think you mis understand my definition, I said the word God, means what exists.I didn’t say"a" God. According to the Bible, Moses(who is not proven to be a Historical person) Asked God who he was, His answer was" I am what is",To me that means not “a” being, but being. The scientists say we are all made of the same stuff as the stars. As an example: I refer again to the ocean, from the smallest drop to the whole ocean it is all water. I do not believe in the Ocean, I know it is there,and I also know I can take out the smallest drop,it would still be water,and it wouldn’t change the make up of the ocean. One doesn’t believe in their own exsistance they know they exist Theists believe God is a separate being, some thing other than how I see, or interpet the word God. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58956e/32.png) [@Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoodoo_Ulove)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-is-a-god-meh/286666/50 "2005-01-28T17:05:28Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > I think you mis understand my definition. . … Theists believe God is a separate being, some thing other than how I see, or interpet the word God. Monavis I don’t think I misunderstand your definition. You appear to be a pantheist, which is a kind of theist. My problem with the pantheist position is that if God is identical with “all” then you are really just calling “all” by another name. I also think I understand that you further feel that a consequence of identifying God with “all” is that “all” is sacred. I too am susceptible to feelings of reverence and awe when confronting the brute fact of the existence of the vast universe and the wonder of life, the mysteries of consciousness, etc. I do not, however, proceed from these emotions to making unsupportable assertions about the underlying nature of reality. (I’m leaving cyberspace for the weekend. I hope we can continue this dialogue Monday) ---
**Author:** ![EvanS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@EvanS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EvanS)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-is-a-god-meh/286666/51 "2005-01-29T23:12:06Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > **EvanS** , I was addressing your comment re arrogance and imbuing human traits on a “supreme being.” Thought you were taking a Xian stance. Confused here 😕 I was just trying to say that if we imagine a set of traits, then expect a supreme being (who may or may not even notice us – depends on who you ask) to adhere to these traits if we are to allow for that beings existance (for example: “If people are beheaded and God doesn’t save them then God is just the imaginings of believers”), then we are putting ourself in the position of creating god. If there is a God (by the most universal description of God), then God is going to be the way it is, and hardly needs us to impose conditions on its existance. If anything, it is _ **us** _ not doing such a good job in: [ol] [li]Determining if there even is a God,[/li][li]Determining what the attributes of that God might be.[/li][/ol] Although I think that the teachings of Jesus were generally productive, sensible and humanitarian teachings, I won’t take a stance supporting any extant Christian organized religion till I find one that supports some of his key teachings. If you check my postings in the [faith](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=297409) thread, you’ll see I have no faith, but I am very open-minded as to the nature of existance, I think. Perhaps we were miscommunicating? Hope this helps clarify my comments; I was a bit confused as well. (insert appropriate smiley) EvnEv ---
**Author:** ![EvanS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@EvanS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EvanS)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-is-a-god-meh/286666/52 "2005-01-29T23:20:09Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > I think you mis understand my definition, I said the word God, means what exists.I didn’t say"a" God. **Mon** I think I understand your position and your references completely, and have even made the same connection when reading the Pentateuch. With the New Physics-type descriptions of matter and energy and our place in the Universe, I think it fits, too. Do you think this viewpoint might also fit with [this viewpoint I posted earlier?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5767717&postcount=36) (I think it got lost in the shuffle - or maybe it had no merit?) Ev36 ---
**Author:** ![EvanS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@EvanS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EvanS)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-is-a-god-meh/286666/53 "2005-01-29T23:29:31Z")
> [@Hoodoo Ulove](#): > > I don’t think I misunderstand your definition. You appear to be a pantheist, which is a kind of theist. My problem with the pantheist position is that if God is identical with “all” then you are really just calling “all” by another name. I also think I understand that you further feel that a consequence of identifying God with “all” is that “all” is sacred. > > I too am susceptible to feelings of reverence and awe when confronting the brute fact of the existence of the vast universe and the wonder of life, the mysteries of consciousness, etc. > > I do not, however, proceed from these emotions to making unsupportable assertions about the underlying nature of reality. > > (I’m leaving cyberspace for the weekend. I hope we can continue this dialogue Monday) Mind if I jump in? I don’t see **mon** as making unsupportable assertions, but speculating on one possibility. I do much the same thing. I have no faith in anything but my experience, and that only as my experience, not a representation of reality. I don’t know, nor pretend to know what reality is, nor what God is if there is a god. I don’t see **mon**'s position as pantheist, if I understand pantheism, but more leaning to universal (though not universalist) in that god exists in, with and simultaneous with the energy/matter state of the universe. Pantheism more assigns portions of god to specific things, no? Ev an my Shadow… ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-is-a-god-meh/286666/54 "2005-01-30T12:15:13Z")
> [@EvanS](#): > > **Mon** I think I understand your position and your references completely, and have even made the same connection when reading the Pentateuch. > > With the New Physics-type descriptions of matter and energy and our place in the Universe, I think it fits, too. > > Do you think this viewpoint might also fit with [this viewpoint I posted earlier?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5767717&postcount=36) > (I think it got lost in the shuffle - or maybe it had no merit?) > > Ev36 This is very close to what I mean, except I would not use the “a” God. I would subsitute the word, and say existance. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-is-a-god-meh/286666/55 "2005-01-30T12:29:58Z")
> [@EvanS](#): > > **Mon** I think I understand your position and your references completely, and have even made the same connection when reading the Pentateuch. > > With the New Physics-type descriptions of matter and energy and our place in the Universe, I think it fits, too. > > Do you think this viewpoint might also fit with [this viewpoint I posted earlier?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5767717&postcount=36) > (I think it got lost in the shuffle - or maybe it had no merit?) > > Ev36 You are close to what I mean. I would not use the Word"A" God; Iwould use existance. That would mean our universe, the cosmos,or other universes if they exist. I think it more than a coincidence that we are all mde up of the same things,Just a difference in DNA amounts. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![EvanS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@EvanS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EvanS)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-is-a-god-meh/286666/56 "2005-01-31T05:30:37Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > You are close to what I mean. I would not use the Word"A" God; Iwould use existance. That would mean our universe, the cosmos,or other universes if they exist. I think it more than a coincidence that we are all mde up of the same things,Just a difference in DNA amounts. > > Monavis OK, we are on the same page. Perhaps I miscommunicated some details, but yes, I can relate to the idea of “Existence” (let’s give it a capital “E”) being God (with a capital “G”). At least better than an old man with a white beard living up in a cloud… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58956e/32.png) [@Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoodoo_Ulove)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-is-a-god-meh/286666/57 "2005-01-31T17:32:46Z")
> [@EvanS](#): > > … I can relate to the idea of “Existence” (let’s give it a capital “E”) being God (with a capital “G”). > > At least better than an old man with a white beard living up in a cloud… > > 😃 Maybe I’m not getting this across, or missing something you and Monavis are saying, but calling Existence God (caps used reluctantly) just seems to be giving it another name, not saying anything substantive about it. It’s neither true nor false. The mean old man in the sky story is at least a real proposition. ---
**Author:** ![EvanS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@EvanS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EvanS)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2005, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-is-a-god-meh/286666/58 "2005-02-01T00:29:29Z")
> [@Hoodoo Ulove](#): > > Maybe I’m not getting this across, or missing something you and Monavis are saying, but calling Existence God (caps used reluctantly) just seems to be giving it another name, not saying anything substantive about it. It’s neither true nor false. The mean old man in the sky story is at least a real proposition. I think it’s called a ‘definition.’ ---
**Author:** ![Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58956e/32.png) [@Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoodoo_Ulove)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2005, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-is-a-god-meh/286666/59 "2005-02-01T15:39:32Z")
> [@EvanS](#): > > I think it’s called a ‘definition.’ No, that’s way bogus. Surely belief in god is more than meaning a belief in the definition of a word. If that’s all you believe in you look like a goddamn atheist to me. ---
**Author:** ![overlyverbose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/9dc877/32.png) [@overlyverbose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/overlyverbose)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2005, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-is-a-god-meh/286666/60 "2005-02-01T16:05:18Z")
I’m still on the fence regarding the existence of god or gods. My husband is strongly atheist, but I’m not sure I can completely jump over to the other side. I will say that, particularly in debates, I find it very offensive when people refer to said deity or deities as the “Sky Fairy” or similar, not because I think it’s sacrilege, but because deliberately insulting someone else’s beliefs in such a manner in the middle of a debate regarding said beliefs indicates that at least one person will not take the debate seriously. Why open a debate only to insult your opponent? Anyway, like I said, I’m still on the fence about the existence of something all-powerful, or even semi-powerful. For personal reasons, I’m not quite willing to give up hope, but intellectually, it’s difficult to maintain any belief, and like **Losbang** , if someone were to conclusively prove that some sort of diety exists, I’m not sure it would make a difference. I mean, if a god created us, maybe he did so only for his or her amusement so they could watch us beat the crap out of each other. Or maybe it really does love us, but lost control somewhere. Or perhaps it does have a particular destiny for us, but just hasn’t been kind enough to let us in on it so we can worship said god appropriately, and it’s setting some of us up for a big fall, which would be really horrible. But thinking that way depresses me, so I’d prefer to hold out some sort of hope; unfortunately, I’m not quite sure what I’m hoping for. I can’t consider myself a member of any major monotheistic religion because I don’t consider myself more right than others, and I certainly wouldn’t wish other people to go to a place of neverending torture simply because they made the mistake of not believing in a god who rarely if ever shows his or her face (in fact, I consider that downright understandable), or if that god does show its face and we just don’t realize it, said god never bothers to correct us. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-is-a-god-meh/286666.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-is-a-god-meh/286666.md?page=4)