# If There Were Intelligent Life on Mars **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 8, 2015, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-were-intelligent-life-on-mars/737038 "2015-11-08T18:28:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-were-intelligent-life-on-mars/737038/21 "2015-11-09T23:13:32Z")
I didn’t say it was useless in other sciences but istm it lacks imagination to say a society couldn’t advance a fair bit in some ways without it. If a species communicated through chemical signals, they could hypothetically have many advances in chemistry without building a perfect bridge. If they sensed things across a much wider light spectrum maybe that would lead to quicker advance in that direction. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-were-intelligent-life-on-mars/737038/22 "2015-11-10T03:33:08Z")
> [@dracoi](#): > > Anyway, where would trigonometry be without geometry? And where is electromagnetism without a sine function? Telling points. Navigation and power generation. One must know how to deliver the generator, and what to do with it upon arrival. ---
**Author:** ![Ignotus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ecc23a/32.png) [@Ignotus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignotus)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-were-intelligent-life-on-mars/737038/23 "2015-11-10T05:14:07Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Telling points. Navigation and power generation. > One must know how to deliver the generator, and what to do with it upon arrival. Bees do this by _dancing_. And it’s most likely done on an unconscious level. I’m not saying you could push this concept all the way to space travel and nuclear power plants. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-were-intelligent-life-on-mars/737038/24 "2015-11-10T05:23:06Z")
> [@dracoi](#): > > Shapes are pretty much universal, yes. There’s no arrangement of three lines with touching endpoints that isn’t a triangle. Parallel is a property only if two lines extended to infinity will never intersect. Perpendicular lines will always define a 90-degree angle, and perpendicular is the only way for two intersecting straight lines to have the same angle on every side of the intersection. > > Even a species without a sense of sight wouldn’t get anywhere technologically unless they had a way to recognize basic geometry. If you’re looking for a species similar to ours, then I suppose you would expect a similar geometry. I don’t really assume that we should look to ourselves or our minds as the model for intelligent life, but the OP is all about a human-similar life form so I won’t complicate things. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-were-intelligent-life-on-mars/737038/25 "2015-11-10T05:27:13Z")
> [@OldOlds](#): > > -Do you think we develop a friendly neighbors relationship, or given our nature, do we find a way to go negative? Given the difficulties of space travel, we would be much more likely to have a friendly relationship for no other reason than because going there to steal their Martian gold or whatever would cost more resources than it’s worth. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But, as soon as the Martians get as far as electric lighting, wouldn’t city lights be visible whenever Earthling telescopes are trained on the night side of the planet? Earth telescopes are never trained on the night side of the planet - we are always on the sunward side of their planet. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-were-intelligent-life-on-mars/737038/26 "2015-11-10T05:53:13Z")
Seeing how difficult humans have dealing with other humans just when they have different skin tones, I doubt humans would react well to say a race of intelligent squid. ---
**Author:** ![Phnord\_Prephect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/df705f/32.png) [@Phnord\_Prephect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phnord_Prephect)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-were-intelligent-life-on-mars/737038/27 "2015-11-13T23:34:16Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Given the difficulties of space travel, we would be much more likely to have a friendly relationship for no other reason than because going there to steal their Martian gold or whatever would cost more resources than it’s worth. > Earth telescopes are never trained on the night side of the planet - we are always on the sunward side of their planet. Ok, I’m going to make a couple assumptions to tackle this one. I’ve given life-on-Mars a lot of thought over the years, and here’s what I’ve come up with\*: First assumption: Intelligent species on Mars evolves at the same time as on Earth, give or take a decade. Vision is identical; same ability to focus, same spectrum, etc. Other senses may or may not match, it doesn’t much matter. Vision matters, as you’ll soon see… Second assumption: Mars’ climate is similar to Barsoom, and other early science-fiction descriptions: Water-filled artificial canals visible from space, with sparse vegetation in an otherwise arid-to-desert climate. Thin atmosphere, low gravity. Possible forests in craters, canyons, and other areas of very low altitude. Third assumption: The development of the telescope occurs at the same time on each planet, to the extent that each species has the ability to see Lowell-level details on the other planet, on the same exact date in history. Technology levels up until this point are identical between the two species. The development of technology after this point may or may not change, depending on the species’ actions. Alright, so the point is that, until telescopes are trained on it, even the closest nearby planet is nothing more than a speck of light in the sky. So for the most part, nothing will be visibly different about that speck when compared to any other speck. However, once the planet can be seen as a disk, with visible features (at increasing resolution), interesting things start to happen. One planet sees, apparently, only the daytime side of a smallish red planet with canals, but no apparent oceans. The other sees a planet of clouds and oceans, with green, brown, and white lumps scattered here and there. Years of observations reveal the effect of the seasons, and decades start to show patterns in the green, brown, and white parts which are discovered to be land, as opposed to the truly AMAZING amount of water on that planet. As telescope technology improves, the details each species can see improves. On Earth, we gradually make out more detailed maps of the canals, as well as canyons and some of the larger craters. It’s still pretty boring, all red and dusty, but occasionally a new canal is discovered (or built!) Speculation about life, and intelligent life, focuses around a desert-adapted species building cities, which are believed to be located where the various canals converge. However, limitations on telescope resolution keep us from directly noticing any ‘proof’ at all. On Mars, things are very different. Earthlings are seeing a boring, static world… Martians are seeing an amazing spinning whirling twisting churning ball of color that’s never quite the same twice! WOW! Even more amazing, patterns emerge over time. Hurricanes are figured out. Ice caps and the snowline, moving north and south with the seasons, is inferred. The oceans remain more or less as they are, but the continents are particularly interesting. No, they wouldn’t be able to see our cities directly (The Great Wall of China is barely visible from orbit, much less the moon, and certainly not from Mars!) What they WOULD see, and here’s where everything changes, is the lights of cities! Small, scattered, faint as they begin but getting larger and brighter as Human cities grow and develop. Once it’s proven these aren’t forest fires, or geothermal activity, or anything like that, the idea that they are a sign of life gradually begins to be accepted. And once you map out the locations of these lights, and compare them to their locations during the day, you notice something interesting: Just like on Mars, these lights seem to be more prevalent near Earth’s weird, twisting ‘canals’, and at other interesting points. Coastlines at river mouths, or inland where rivers converge, or upstream on these rivers from other, larger sources of light. Scattered at first, but over the years getting bigger and more prevalent. There’s no question anymore: There IS intelligent life on the other planet. And, being the kind of evolved beings we are, we immediately decide to focus our entire attention on one plan of action: Making contact with this other life form, and taking all its stuff. We might spend some time being friends with them, if their bodies aren’t too weird. And if we can communicate at all, of course. Fortunately for us, although we don’t know it yet, those balding monkeys over on “E^R’th” (the ancient goddess of mud) haven’t decided if there’s life on our speck or not. I speak, of course, as the Martians here. Earthlings don’t really think like that… do they? :eek: So from this point on, Mars has a clear advantage over Earth, especially if Grumman’s quote is true: Earth will NEVER notice lights-in-the-nighttime on Mars if it’s always daytime, but Mars can see those on Earth, at least most of the time. Mars therefore knows (or believes with a much higher certainty than humans ‘know’ about Martians) there is life on another, extremely interesting (and covered with water, which is nice) planet that is right. over. there! So therefore, in my opinion, Mars will advance in technology, at least that related to space travel, more quickly than Earth will. In 1895, Marconi… well, Wikipedia tells it better than I can: > [@Wikipedia](#): > > In the summer of 1894, he built a storm alarm made up of a battery, a coherer, and an electric bell, which went off if there was lightning. Soon after he was able to make a bell ring on the other side of the room by pushing a telegraphic button on a bench.[17] > > One night in December, Guglielmo woke his mother up and invited her into his secret workshop and showed her the experiment he had created. The next day he also showed his work to his father, who, when he was certain there were no wires, gave his son all of the money he had in his wallet so Guglielmo could buy more materials. > > … In the summer of 1895 Marconi moved his experimentation outdoors and continued to experiment on his father’s estate in Bologna. After increasing the length of the transmitter and receiver antennas, arranging them vertically, and positioning the antenna so that it touched the ground, the range increased significantly.[18] Soon he was able to transmit signals over a hill, a distance of approximately 2.4 kilometres (1.5 mi).[19] By this point he concluded that with additional funding and research, a device could become capable of spanning greater distances and would prove valuable both commercially and militarily. > [@Wikipedia](#): > > In 1898, Tesla demonstrated a radio-controlled boat… So I’m gonna go with 1895 as the date of Radio on Earth. Sorry Tesla, but I’m going with the dates on Wikipedia. Marconi made something happen with it first, he wins. You still rock, tho! At this point, presuming Mars hasn’t beaten us to the punch. it becomes possible (in one specific way) to open a realistic line of communication between the two planets for the first time. Even if Mars never works out the means of broadcasting transmissions, the ability to receive them would be a huge advantage. In fact, if Mars deliberately kept silent, the surprise factor would be an even bigger advantage! On Earth, World War II happens. Two important events: a huge boost in Human military technology, and the detonation of multiple nuclear devices, begin the human space age. It’s possible that Martians have been in space, but not known for sure until humans can get out there and really look around. And if they didn’t know we were here already, they most certainly do now. You don’t not-see nuclear explosions! (no pun intended!) In 1965… > [@Wikipedia](#): > > Mariner 4 performed the first successful flyby of the planet Mars, returning the first pictures of the Martian surface. At which point humans can finally tell for sure, in high resolution, what they’ve been looking at all these years. SURPRISE! There’s a thriving ecosystem on Mars after all, and definite signs of intelligent civilization! There might even be spacecraft in orbit around Mars at this point! Either way, now you know for sure! I would suggest treading lightly, Humans! You’ve just learned something they’ve known about for, oh, exactly 70 years? You’ve just made first contact (or will do shortly), as far as you know, but they’ve been ready for it almost that long? How much has humanity invented in those 70 years? What have the Martians been doing all this time? Hope you brought either some nice gifts to open trade with, or a vastly superior military technology - you’re gonna need 'em! \*“Come Up With” = “Pulled out of my ass just now” -Phnord ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-were-intelligent-life-on-mars/737038/28 "2015-11-14T03:27:52Z")
Did you bring enough to share? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Bonaventure](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c57346/32.png) [@Bonaventure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bonaventure)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-were-intelligent-life-on-mars/737038/29 "2015-11-14T03:58:43Z")
I read a novel a few years ago with a similar plot; astronomers on Earth in the late 19th century were certain that they had seen canals built on Mars so they decide to attempt to send the Martians a signal. The head astronomer settles on a 300-mile long equilateral triangle carved into the Egytian desert, filled with petroleum, and lit on fire just it would become visible from Mars. For this he requisitions an unprecedented number of international laborers and international support (made much easier since colonialism was still in full swing). The book was _Equilateral_ by Ken Kalfus. It was a rubbish book, but I thought it was a clever concept. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-were-intelligent-life-on-mars/737038/30 "2015-11-14T04:58:41Z")
There was some serious scientific discussion of this matter in 1901. > **[AN EASTER ATTRACTION. - West Australian Sunday Times (Perth, WA : 1897 - 1902)...](https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/32722572)** > > George Rignold, the well-known and eminent actor, has arranged to play a short season at the Theatre Royal, Perth, and will make his first ... _In the «ourse of his fifth Christmas lecture at tiie Royal Institution, «Sir Kobert Ball (according to tlie “Daily Mail”) referred to’Mr. Nikola Tesla’s statement that ; he had .received a message from Mars. Whether there were being in Mars capable of sending intelligent messages to us Sir Robert could not say, but he gave some idea of tlie kind of signal, that we should have to send in order that it might be observed by the Martians. A flag the size of Ireland would be required, and a gigantic flagstaff would be necessary, and even then the signal would only be visible as a tiny speck. As to the nature of the message the Mariians would be likely to send to us, be did not think it. would be anything grandiose ; it would most likely take the form of the three simple words, “Are you there?”_ [http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=TH19010225.2.8](http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=TH19010225.2.8) \*A correspondent of the London Daily News impressed by the statement that the wagging of a flag might be discerned by the Martians makes a suggestion. His idea is that all the electric lights in The United States and Canada might be turned on and off at given moments. The Martian astronomer might conceivably see this signal like a heliograph over the darkened portion of the planet and also might labour to devise some discernible response. That, at any rate, is the theory of the correspondent. \* ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-were-intelligent-life-on-mars/737038/31 "2015-11-14T05:51:03Z")
[Similar thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=632288) I made a while back [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-were-intelligent-life-on-mars/737038.md?page=1)