# If there were no one in the universe to observe it, would the universe still exist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 4, 2011, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-were-no-one-in-the-universe-to-observe-it-would-the-universe-still-exist/591496 "2011-08-04T19:17:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-were-no-one-in-the-universe-to-observe-it-would-the-universe-still-exist/591496/21 "2011-08-12T00:26:03Z")
All that man has ever accomplished is just doesn’t matter on a universal scale. Nothing we have done or are currently capable of doing has any measurable effect on the universe. It was here before we were, and it will still be here when we’re all gone. Observation is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-were-no-one-in-the-universe-to-observe-it-would-the-universe-still-exist/591496/22 "2011-08-12T03:04:18Z")
This universe appears to exist. Since universe means all that exists, including past and future existence, everything that is not in this universe (such as “another universe”) needs a new name. I suggest we refer to alternate realities as falsities. Tris ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-were-no-one-in-the-universe-to-observe-it-would-the-universe-still-exist/591496/23 "2011-08-12T03:16:19Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > All that man has ever accomplished is just doesn’t matter on a universal scale. Nothing we have done or are currently capable of doing has any measurable effect on the universe. It was here before we were, and it will still be here when we’re all gone. Observation is irrelevant. Observation of the universe is irrelevant? What about observation of [observation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness)? ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-were-no-one-in-the-universe-to-observe-it-would-the-universe-still-exist/591496/24 "2011-08-12T03:21:28Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > Observation of the universe is irrelevant? What about observation of [observation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness)? On a cosmic scale, yes. Man is but an insignificant anomaly in an obscure section of the universe. Doesn’t matter what we want, achieve, or construct. This entire planet will one day cease to be, and when that happens, all memory of what we were will be gone forever. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-were-no-one-in-the-universe-to-observe-it-would-the-universe-still-exist/591496/25 "2011-08-12T03:24:17Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What was he sleeping on before he woke up? A turtle! ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-were-no-one-in-the-universe-to-observe-it-would-the-universe-still-exist/591496/26 "2011-08-12T03:46:33Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Observation is irrelevant. Prove it. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-were-no-one-in-the-universe-to-observe-it-would-the-universe-still-exist/591496/27 "2011-08-12T17:29:51Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > Prove it. Look at the heavens tonight. Stare really hard. Does your looking up have any measurable affect on the stars you see overhead? I think not. Those stars are up there, doing their thing, whether you look up or not. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-were-no-one-in-the-universe-to-observe-it-would-the-universe-still-exist/591496/28 "2011-08-12T19:04:01Z")
What does it mean for something to “exist” if there is nothing there to observe that existence? What is the difference between nothing and a universe that is not observed? ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-were-no-one-in-the-universe-to-observe-it-would-the-universe-still-exist/591496/29 "2011-08-12T19:07:03Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > What does it mean for something to “exist” if there is nothing there to observe that existence? What is the difference between nothing and a universe that is not observed? That’s the type of question best considered (but never resolved) after midnight in college dorm rooms, with an improbably large bong in active use. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-were-no-one-in-the-universe-to-observe-it-would-the-universe-still-exist/591496/30 "2011-08-12T19:15:40Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > That’s the type of question best considered (but never resolved) after midnight in college dorm rooms, with an improbably large bong in active use. Perhaps. But we all assume that we know what it means to “exist”, but that is based on our ability to observe what exists. My point is that the question itself is meaningless, since there is no difference between a universe that is not observed and no universe at all. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-were-no-one-in-the-universe-to-observe-it-would-the-universe-still-exist/591496/31 "2011-08-12T19:21:59Z")
I can’t see my house from my office. The house was there when I left this morning. I assume it was still there when my Druidess texted me an hour or so ago. I fully expect the house to be right where I left it when I go home from work in a few hours. Previous experience has shown that this is usually the case. Therefore I conclude that my house continues to exist, whether I observe it or not. By extrapolation, I conclude that since my house continues to exist regardless of whether I observe its existence or not, it is likely that the universe, which contains my house, continues to exist regardless of whether I, or anyone at all, observes that existence. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-were-no-one-in-the-universe-to-observe-it-would-the-universe-still-exist/591496/32 "2011-08-12T22:08:44Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > All that man has ever accomplished is just doesn’t matter on a universal scale. Nothing we have done or are currently capable of doing has any measurable effect on the universe. It was here before we were, and it will still be here when we’re all gone. Observation is irrelevant. I never said humans though. It could be us, it could be space aliens, or hell, it could be Earth Worm Jim observing the universe as a whole from his snow globe. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-were-no-one-in-the-universe-to-observe-it-would-the-universe-still-exist/591496/33 "2011-08-13T02:28:03Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > In the world of quantum physics, it is believed that the act of observing something can change the outcome. (The observer effect) > > So with that in mind; would the universe still exist (as we know it) if no one were in it to observe it? It did long before we humans evolved. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-were-no-one-in-the-universe-to-observe-it-would-the-universe-still-exist/591496/34 "2011-08-13T06:53:27Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Perhaps. But we all assume that we know what it means to “exist”, but that is based on our ability to observe what exists. My point is that the question itself is meaningless, since there is no difference between a universe that is not observed and no universe at all. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > What does it mean for something to “exist” if there is nothing there to observe that existence? What is the difference between nothing and a universe that is not observed? I tend to disagree. The difference being that _absolute nothingness_, cannot bring forth the very act of observation. Our universe has, and now here we are contemplating it. RE: Quantum observation, and the double slit experiment which reveals the nature of the wave particle nature of light, I found [this clip from a recent episode of _Through the Wormhole_](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9yWv5dqSKk) quite enlightening and fascinating. ---
**Author:** ![Asympotically\_fat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47c2d/32.png) [@Asympotically\_fat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asympotically_fat)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-were-no-one-in-the-universe-to-observe-it-would-the-universe-still-exist/591496/35 "2011-08-13T16:59:35Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > However, an “observer” in quantum mechanics can be nothing more than a nearby atom to be affected by it. It does not require the observer to be sentient. I don’t know about that, what about the fact that what exactly consititutes an observation (and hence an observer) in quantum mechanics is not clearly defined (the quantum mechanical measurement problem) or that particles can ‘interact’ in quantum mechnaics and you can catergorically state that an observation has nto taken place (i.e. quantum entanglement) or the delayed choice quantum eraser experiment where the experimenter can choose after the particle has passed through the slits whether or not to retain information about which slit the particle has passed through and whether or not an interference pattern is observed. I think without a fully-satisfacotry resolution to the quantum mechanical measurement problem (Everett’s interpretation plus decoherence offer a solution, but at the same time create their own set of problems), I don’t think psychoparallelist interpretations can be totally ruled out, however distasteful they may be. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-were-no-one-in-the-universe-to-observe-it-would-the-universe-still-exist/591496/36 "2011-08-13T19:10:44Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > I tend to disagree. The difference being that _absolute nothingness_, cannot bring forth the very act of observation. Isn’t that exactly what happened, though? Or at least what we think happened, to the best of our knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-were-no-one-in-the-universe-to-observe-it-would-the-universe-still-exist/591496/37 "2011-08-13T19:36:09Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > Also, we have to question if causality and effect are always so straight forward. Why? ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-were-no-one-in-the-universe-to-observe-it-would-the-universe-still-exist/591496/38 "2011-08-13T20:00:22Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Isn’t that exactly what happened, though? Or at least what we think happened, to the best of our knowledge. The “best of our knowledge” I don’t think is adequate here. 1. If something exists, does that mean nothingness is meaningless? 2. If nothing exists, how can it be called “nothing” if it brings forth “something”? ETA: IOW, absolutely nothingness is impossible to exist, because it’s the very definition of non-existence. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-were-no-one-in-the-universe-to-observe-it-would-the-universe-still-exist/591496/39 "2011-08-13T20:06:50Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > …it’s completely accepted that the observer does not need to be conscious. To reply to ITR Champion, an observer in the double-slit experiment can simply be a detector placed at one of the slits, to detect when the electron passes through that one. Who’s to say that the detector itself isn’t in a superposition, later collapsed by observation? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-were-no-one-in-the-universe-to-observe-it-would-the-universe-still-exist/591496/40 "2011-08-13T20:46:37Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > The “best of our knowledge” I don’t think is adequate here. > > 1. If something exists, does that mean nothingness is meaningless? > > 2. If nothing exists, how can it be called “nothing” if it brings forth “something”? > > ETA: IOW, absolutely nothingness is impossible to exist, because it’s the very definition of non-existence. Why should we assume that our brains would be able to comprehend this sort of thing or our language have the ability to describe it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-were-no-one-in-the-universe-to-observe-it-would-the-universe-still-exist/591496.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-there-were-no-one-in-the-universe-to-observe-it-would-the-universe-still-exist/591496.md?page=3)