# If they stonewall the 9/11 report, can they hold the election?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-they-stonewall-the-9-11-report-can-they-hold-the-election/238452
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [April 5, 2004, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-they-stonewall-the-9-11-report-can-they-hold-the-election/238452 "2004-04-05T23:04:42Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 4
### Author:  [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2004, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-they-stonewall-the-9-11-report-can-they-hold-the-election/238452/61 "2004-04-07T00:19:38Z")
> [@wonderwench](#):
>
> The German Resistance continued to battle Allied troops for three years after Germany surrendered after WWII.
>
> A totalitarian regime is not going to roll over and die peacefully. It’s death struggles are intended to take out as many of the enemy as possible - and to perhaps resuscitate itself.
>
> The current situation is exacerbated by the AQ support of the remaining Baathists. Surprise surprise! AQ wants Iraq to stay a totalitarian cesspool.
>
> The Bushies appear to be committed to a June deadline for transition to an Iraqi government, supported by U.N. involvement. So, looks like you will get what you wish.
Even if you can’t respond to my response to your post about Pearl Harbor…you should search the boards for threads about the **Werewolves**. They have been discussed several times.
They were nothing.
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### Author:  [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2004, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-they-stonewall-the-9-11-report-can-they-hold-the-election/238452/62 "2004-04-07T00:23:06Z")
> [@wonderwench](#):
>
> I don’t call you a disgrace to America for opposing Bush or the war - please show some common courtesy and respect my right to hold a different opinion.
I respect your right to hold a different opinion. I also respect my right to think that opinion happens to be a tad fascist.
> [@](#):
>
> You are making false comparisons. Clinton was investigated for lying under oath and abusing the powers of his office.
I bet we could investigate Bush for that, too, if he’d dare let himself or anyone in his administration step anywhere near being put under oath.
> [@](#):
>
> The investigation was not about the policy decisions and intelligence efforts concerning Yugoslavia.
And neither does the 9/11 investigation have anything to do with policy decisions and intelligence efforts concerning Iraq.
I any event, even if it **did** , so farking what? There is no rule or law in this country that says you can’t investigate something during war. In fact, historical events are the exact opposite - as someone pointed out, there were numerous investigations into Pearl Harbor during WWII. In fact, I think that we are almost obligated to investigate these things as soon as possible.
> [@](#):
>
> Nor am I calling for the government to censor itself. What I do advocate is that during a national security crisis, the government fulfill its responsibility to defend our nation
We aren’t defending our nation - we are invading other nations. In any case, name the historical precedent for your belief.
> [@](#):
>
> which entails not compromising our policy making and intelligence gathering resources.
If by “compromising our policy making” you mean “revealing the lies to the American people,” then sure.
> [@](#):
>
> There is absolutely no precedent to hold an investigation into such areas after Congressional approval for military action had been given and before the conclusion of a war.
Pearl Harbor? I don’t know of any cites off the top of my head right now, but I would put dollars to donuts on there being investigations into almost every war in American history. In fact, I know for a fact that there were **dozens** investigations into many aspects of the Vietnam War, from genocide to our involvement in Laos and Cambodia.
> [@](#):
>
> There is a ver good reason for not establishing such a precedent now: the highly politicized nature of such investigations.
In other words: “I’m afraid that the results will condemn Bush.”
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### Author:  [@wonderwench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonderwench)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2004, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-they-stonewall-the-9-11-report-can-they-hold-the-election/238452/63 "2004-04-07T00:25:27Z")
> [@Reeder](#):
>
> First of all congress went to war on the word of Bushco. Some handpicked congressmen may have seen some of the evidence, but not very many.
> As for Pearl Harbor…take your pick
>
> [The Knox investigation](http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/pha/knox/knox_0.html)
>
> [The Roberts Commission](http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/pha/roberts/roberts.html)
>
> [The Hart Investigation](http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/pha/hart/hart-00.html)
>
> [The Army Pearl Harbor Board](http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/pha/army/chap_0.html)
>
> [Ths Navy Court of Inquiry](http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/pha/navy/navy_0.html)
>
> And there were several more…now you were saying?
These are not valid comparisons to the 9/11 Commission. They did not involve forcing advisors to the President to testify in public.
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### Author:  [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2004, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-they-stonewall-the-9-11-report-can-they-hold-the-election/238452/64 "2004-04-07T00:27:22Z")
> [@wonderwench](#):
>
> The German Resistance continued to battle Allied troops for three years after Germany surrendered after WWII.
The PigHawks, or whatever the heck they were called? It is to LAUGH!
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### Author:  [@wonderwench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonderwench)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2004, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-they-stonewall-the-9-11-report-can-they-hold-the-election/238452/65 "2004-04-07T00:28:08Z")
> [@Zagadka](#):
>
> In other words: “I’m afraid that the results will condemn Bush.”
Nope. I’m not afraid of that in the least.
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### Author:  [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2004, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-they-stonewall-the-9-11-report-can-they-hold-the-election/238452/66 "2004-04-07T00:31:56Z")
> [@wonderwench](#):
>
> The German Resistance continued to battle Allied troops for three years after Germany surrendered after WWII.
Actually, the most recent trouble has been coming from the Shia, not the Baath. O\_o
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### Author:  [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2004, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-they-stonewall-the-9-11-report-can-they-hold-the-election/238452/67 "2004-04-07T00:34:03Z")
> [@wonderwench](#):
>
> Nope. I’m not afraid of that in the least.
You’re good at ignoring stuff O\_o
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### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2004, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-they-stonewall-the-9-11-report-can-they-hold-the-election/238452/68 "2004-04-07T00:35:55Z")
“Forcing”? No such thing, m’dear, no such thing. The President, after due consideration, and with an eye to the gravity of the issues involved, has deemed it appropriate, under these exceptional circumstances, for such testimony to take place. Naturally, his total committment to candor is reflected in this decision. Nonetheless, GeeDubya is ever-mindful of constitutional issues and careful that no unfortunate precedent be set. The President is entirely unaware of any public opinion polling in this regard, and makes his decisions based only on national security considerations and sound governmental principles.
And if you believe that, I know this Nigerian guy can make you rich…
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### Author:  [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2004, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-they-stonewall-the-9-11-report-can-they-hold-the-election/238452/69 "2004-04-07T01:12:25Z")
I actually got a nigerian letter (email). What a lucky motherfucker I was about to be…too bad I never took advantage of that sweet swindle situation.
worse still, i once had a friend who came to me back in the hard copy days, with a nigerian letter, (buy in $500.00) and he was all excited…
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### Author:  [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2004, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-they-stonewall-the-9-11-report-can-they-hold-the-election/238452/70 "2004-04-07T01:14:57Z")
> [@wonderwench](#):
>
> These are not valid comparisons to the 9/11 Commission. They did not involve forcing advisors to the President to testify in public.
no one was subpoenaed.
therefore, no one was forced.
if the crawford clodhoppers were unwilling to stand up to the scrutiny of public opinion and hold their rapidly crumbling position, who should we cry for?
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### Author:  [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2004, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-they-stonewall-the-9-11-report-can-they-hold-the-election/238452/71 "2004-04-07T03:07:04Z")
> [@wonderwench](#):
>
> Clinton was investigated for lying under oath and abusing the powers of his office.
And was elected to a second term. 🙂
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### Author:  [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2004, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-they-stonewall-the-9-11-report-can-they-hold-the-election/238452/72 "2004-04-07T03:24:14Z")
> [@wonderwench](#):
>
> Saddam was a state supporter of terrorism
So is Yassir Arraft, and we aren’t bombing the shit out of Palestine.
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### Author:  [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2004, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-they-stonewall-the-9-11-report-can-they-hold-the-election/238452/73 "2004-04-07T03:25:45Z")
Clinton was investigated for lying under oath
well, there ya’ go.
we fucked up by not getting dub under oath.
more fools we…
apparently the lasso-totin’ bondage babe has no problem with the unsworn lying sack of shit…, only the perjured kind.,
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### Author:  [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2004, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-they-stonewall-the-9-11-report-can-they-hold-the-election/238452/74 "2004-04-07T03:52:32Z")
> [@alaricthegoth](#):
>
> We are in so much deeper shit with Iraq than we ever imagined in vietnam, and vietnam was a catastrophe.
(Underlining mine)
With this one statement, you have destroyed any credibility you may have hoped to have.
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### Author:  [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2004, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-they-stonewall-the-9-11-report-can-they-hold-the-election/238452/75 "2004-04-07T03:54:58Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#):
>
> So is Yassir Arraft, and we aren’t bombing the shit out of Palestine.
As if though _we_ need to…
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### Author:  [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2004, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-they-stonewall-the-9-11-report-can-they-hold-the-election/238452/76 "2004-04-07T04:04:05Z")
Yea, I wouldn’t really compare Iraq to Vietnam. I mean, there were over 3 million people killed in Vietnam. That’s kinda in its own league. This excursion to Iraq, while it may be many things, is not in the same ballpark as Vietnam, much less worse than it.
Subjectively, for young Americans, this whole mess is bad, but please try not to rape history, eh?
In fact, there are far worse wars than Iraq going on throughout Africa right now (that everyone is busy trying to not giving a flying fuck about), and lest we forget that parts of Latin America are still in open rebellion (thanks largely to American and Soviet funding and supporting of dictators and groups), not to mention the regimes that dominate most of Asia (like our good buddies in Pakistan and Turkey)…
Iraq may be a clusterfuck, but it isn’t the worst event in the past 10 years, much less the past 50. The fact that the Democrats and Republicans both have been switching off with the “lets invade Iraq and overthrow Saddam” rhetoric since GW1 just makes it even sadder.
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### Author:  [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2004, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-they-stonewall-the-9-11-report-can-they-hold-the-election/238452/77 "2004-04-07T04:06:28Z")
credibility you may have hoped to have.
I don’t feel that I have lost much. But let’s see.
1. Iraq has already cost us international solidarity in exponential comparison to nam
2. Nam was a relatively straightforward coda to a war of national liberation, with fundamentally only regional importance, no major players in proximate juxtaposition (read Tuirkeyi).
3. The barefoot dude in black pj’s who came home to a crater where he left his home and family in the morning could shake his fist at the B52s, maybe get lucky and spit at John McCain once in a while, but he was not suiting up to ride the Shahid express to Times Square.
4. Vietnam was subsumed by a global alignment which acted to dampen extreme action on both sides, this salutary balance of power is now gone
5. Vietnam had only two sdes. We were not trying to stand in the midle of a three way (four way? five way?) conflict
6. And then there’s palestine…i
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### Author:  [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2004, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-they-stonewall-the-9-11-report-can-they-hold-the-election/238452/78 "2004-04-07T04:10:15Z")
> [@Zagadka](#):
>
> Yea, I wouldn’t really compare Iraq to Vietnam. I mean, there were over 3 million people killed in Vietnam. That’s kinda in its own league. This excursion to Iraq, while it may be many things, is not in the same ballpark as Vietnam, much less worse than it.
>
> Subjectively, for young Americans, this whole mess is bad, but please try not to rape history, eh?
>
> In fact, there are far worse wars than Iraq going on throughout Africa right now (that everyone is busy trying to not giving a flying fuck about), and lest we forget that parts of Latin America are still in open rebellion (thanks largely to American and Soviet funding and supporting of dictators and groups), not to mention the regimes that dominate most of Asia (like our good buddies in Pakistan and Turkey)…
>
> Iraq may be a clusterfuck, but it isn’t the worst event in the past 10 years, much less the past 50. The fact that the Democrats and Republicans both have been switching off with the “lets invade Iraq and overthrow Saddam” rhetoric since GW1 just makes it even sadder.
Hey, give us time. I would say that we have fucked up in Iraq in one year way past the Diem assasination–I’d put us at somewhere ust before the cambodian incursion–every time you hear about syrian border laxity, think cambodia.
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### Author:  [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2004, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-they-stonewall-the-9-11-report-can-they-hold-the-election/238452/79 "2004-04-07T04:16:32Z")
I suppose for war crimes, the gulf of Tonkin charade is about as bad as it gets, but for flair and flourish, you gotta give the nod to the frenzywhipping performance from dub and powell; go back and watch Hitler snivel about the ethnic germans in the sudentenland who are crying out for liberation, and how he’s given the great powers every last chance…It’s straight George Bush, and yes, I do mean to promote that cowpie tossing, dorito-snorting, draftdodging, hoovernosed, DEKE to the bigtime evil…
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### Author:  [@wonderwench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonderwench)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2004, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-they-stonewall-the-9-11-report-can-they-hold-the-election/238452/80 "2004-04-07T17:39:59Z")
> [@alaricthegoth](#):
>
> no one was subpoenaed.
>
> therefore, no one was forced.
>
> if the crawford clodhoppers were unwilling to stand up to the scrutiny of public opinion and hold their rapidly crumbling position, who should we cry for?
The political grandstanding of the Dems and Richard Clarke’s historical fiction books tour forced Rice to testify in public instead of in private. They have set a very damaging precedent for future administrations.
One likely outcome is that, in order to avoid being skewered by holdovers from a prior administration, future presidents will dismiss all of the existing national security appointees and advisors. This will mean a significant knowledge drain as new presidents take office. How does this help our national security.
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