# If Ukraine is facing a troop shortage, why don't they just hire mercenaries **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 24, 2024, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-ukraine-is-facing-a-troop-shortage-why-dont-they-just-hire-mercenaries/1012086 "2024-12-24T01:55:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2024, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-ukraine-is-facing-a-troop-shortage-why-dont-they-just-hire-mercenaries/1012086/24 "2024-12-24T05:51:40Z")
> [@On another topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1012114/4): > > The billions in aid is not in the form of a suitcase full of money. A lot of it is, so to speak. Prior to this year, the U.S. government didn’t just give weapons, it also provided $22.9 billion in direct budget support to the Ukrainian government. That wasn’t tanks or missiles, that was straight-up money. From a pure monetarily standpoint (assuming the legal issue of PMCs being solved,) there isn’t a reason the U.S. government couldn’t earmark, say, a few billion dollars to pay private mercenaries to fight for Ukraine, in a way that would involve first routing the money into Ukraine’s coffers then letting the Ukrainian government technically be the ones to pay the mercs. ---
**Author:** ![UDS1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e47774/32.png) [@UDS1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS1)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2024, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-ukraine-is-facing-a-troop-shortage-why-dont-they-just-hire-mercenaries/1012086/26 "2024-12-24T06:02:07Z")
> [@On another topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1012114/3): > > No. The sovereign states who agreed to form this organization put people in prison. > The ICC or the International Court of Justice is not some independent institution. > > Treaties are not laws. They are unenforceable. You’re literally just pointing to treaties being enforced. You seem to suggest that if treaties are enforced _by sovereign states_ then that means they are not being enforced as law. But laws are normally enforced by sovereign states; the fact that treaties are being enforced by sovereign states tends to suggest that they are law, not that they aren’t. Sure, the ICJ does not exist independently of the sovereign states that established it. But you could make a similar point about the Supreme Court of the US, or any other court. > [@Velocity](#): > > Seems Ukraine could simply award these mercenaries some sort of temporary Ukraine citizenship to get around the “can’t use non-citizens to fight for you” red tape. Unlikely that Russia (or, to be fair, most other states) would accept the legitimacy or efficacy of a grant of temprorary citizenship for the purpose of allowing mercenaries to engage the protections the Geneva Conventions afford to combatants, when the whole point of Protocol 1 is to deny these protections to mercenaries. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2024, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-ukraine-is-facing-a-troop-shortage-why-dont-they-just-hire-mercenaries/1012086/27 "2024-12-24T06:02:36Z")
Yes, but what I meant was, there’s no reason the U.S. couldn’t earmark additional funds (except, of course, for lack of political will.) A lot of aid to Ukraine **has** been in the form of a metaphorical suitcase of money, so to speak. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2024, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-ukraine-is-facing-a-troop-shortage-why-dont-they-just-hire-mercenaries/1012086/28 "2024-12-24T06:05:21Z")
> [@UDS1](#): > > Unlikely that Russia (or, to be fair, most other states) would accept the legitimacy or efficacy of a grant of temprorary citizenship for the purpose of allowing mercenaries to engage the protections the Geneva Conventions afford to combatants, when the whole point of Protocol 1 is to deny these protections to mercenaries. Sure, but without going into graphic detail, it’s not like a country like Russia was going to honor the Geneva Conventions to begin with. If they captured soldiers - Ukrainian or not, mercs or not - they’d be doing what they’ve already done to POWs in this war thus far. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2024, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-ukraine-is-facing-a-troop-shortage-why-dont-they-just-hire-mercenaries/1012086/29 "2024-12-24T06:05:22Z")
All of this assumes that there is a significant number of skilled, experienced mercenary fighters (and not just cannon fodder) who are out there somewhere, and even _could_ be hired. ---
**Author:** ![UDS1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e47774/32.png) [@UDS1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS1)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2024, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-ukraine-is-facing-a-troop-shortage-why-dont-they-just-hire-mercenaries/1012086/30 "2024-12-24T06:10:02Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Sure, but without going into graphic detail, it’s not like a country like Russia was going to honor the Geneva Conventions to begin with. If they captured soldiers - Ukrainian or not, mercs or not - they’d be doing what they’ve already done to POWs in this war thus far. This isn’t just a Russia thing; I don’t think _any_ country would accept that their opponent in a war could engage Geneva Convention protections for the mercenaries it deploys with an award of “temporary citizenship”. And, no fan of Russia either in this war or in general, but they do in fact treat regular Ukrainian POWs a lot better (i.e. less badly) than those captives whom they characterise as mercenaries. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2024, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-ukraine-is-facing-a-troop-shortage-why-dont-they-just-hire-mercenaries/1012086/31 "2024-12-24T06:10:31Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > All of this assumes that there is a significant number of skilled, experienced mercenary fighters who are out there somewhere, and even _could_ be hired. According to this article: (note that “personnel” is not the same as “can fight in battle;” only a small fraction could.) > **[9 Largest Private Military Contractors in the World](https://finance.yahoo.com/news/9-largest-private-military-contractors-174024698.html)** > > In this article, we look at the 9 largest private military contractors in the world. You can skip our detailed analysis on the history and current trends of the private military industry, and head over directly to the 5 Largest Private Military... United Resources Group (Australian) has 1,200 personnel Aegis Defence Services (British) has 5,000 personnel. Triple Canopy (American) has 8,000 personnel. Erinys (British) has 16,000 personnel. Olive Group (British) has 20,000 personnel. Academi (American) has 20,000 personnel. G4S (British) is by far the largest and has **620,000** personnel. And even without the private contractors, there must be a significant number of Iraq-war, Afghanistan-war veterans out there who have been discharged from the US military and still retain a lot of battle skill and experience. ---
**Author:** ![UDS1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e47774/32.png) [@UDS1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS1)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2024, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-ukraine-is-facing-a-troop-shortage-why-dont-they-just-hire-mercenaries/1012086/33 "2024-12-24T06:18:22Z")
> [@On another topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1012114/6): > > The ICJ does whatever we (the sovereign states that pay the bills and have the armies) tell them to. Lord bless your gullibility, but who told you that? ---
**Author:** ![UDS1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e47774/32.png) [@UDS1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS1)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2024, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-ukraine-is-facing-a-troop-shortage-why-dont-they-just-hire-mercenaries/1012086/36 "2024-12-24T07:07:58Z")
> [@On another topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1012114/8): > > Bless your heart, it’s so sweet you think the United Nations has any power. I haven’t mentioned the United Nations at any point. A position which requires you to make up opinions and attribute them to me is probably not a strong one. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2024, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-ukraine-is-facing-a-troop-shortage-why-dont-they-just-hire-mercenaries/1012086/38 "2024-12-24T07:17:31Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > It’s a war crime. Not quite, sorta- depends on how you define them [https://casebook.icrc.org/case-study/issue-mercenaries](https://casebook.icrc.org/case-study/issue-mercenaries) _Is not a member of the armed forces of a party to the conflict_ Ukraine does allow Foreigners to join it’s military. AFAIK they get the same pay as nationals. > **[Ukrainian volunteer battalions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_volunteer_battalions#Foreign_fighters)** > > Ukrainian volunteer battalions (Ukrainian: Добровольчі батальйони, romanized: Dobrovolchi bataliony, more formally Добровольчі військові формування України, Dobrovolchi viiskovi formuvannia Ukrainy, 'Volunteer military formations of Ukraine', or abbreviated Добробати, Dobrobaty) were militias and paramilitary groups mobilized as a response to the perceived state of weakness and unwillingness of the regular Armed Forces to counter rising separatism in spring 2014. They trace their origins to th > [@Velocity](#): > > Seems Ukraine could simply award these mercenaries some sort of temporary Ukraine citizenship to get around the “can’t use non-citizens to fight for you” red tape. You can, certainly. The French Foreign legion for example. Art 47 covers soldiers that are NOT a member of the armed forces of a party to the conflict. In other words sign them up as part of your army- Okay, fine. Have them be a separate special unit- not okay. But note there is the Wagner group, which is mercenaries, but russia didnt agree with art 47. > [@On another topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1012114/7): > > The whole war is a violation of a treaty. And Illegal under International law. But Russia doesnt give a crap. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2024, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-ukraine-is-facing-a-troop-shortage-why-dont-they-just-hire-mercenaries/1012086/39 "2024-12-24T09:13:17Z")
Closed on December 24, 2024, 9:13am UTC ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2024, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-ukraine-is-facing-a-troop-shortage-why-dont-they-just-hire-mercenaries/1012086/40 "2024-12-24T15:02:35Z")
Opened on December 24, 2024, 3:02pm UTC ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2024, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-ukraine-is-facing-a-troop-shortage-why-dont-they-just-hire-mercenaries/1012086/41 "2024-12-24T16:13:21Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > _Is not a member of the armed forces of a party to the conflict_ > > Ukraine does allow Foreigners to join it’s military. AFAIK they get the same pay as nationals. The proposal was the flat out hiring of mercenaries in vast numbers, at pay rates higher than what soldiers get now (Ukrainians recruits ain’t getting $2000 a month) not volunteers joining the army. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2024, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-ukraine-is-facing-a-troop-shortage-why-dont-they-just-hire-mercenaries/1012086/42 "2024-12-24T20:54:54Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The proposal was the flat out hiring of mercenaries in vast numbers, at pay rates higher than what soldiers get now (Ukrainians recruits ain’t getting $2000 a month) not volunteers joining the army. Yes, I get that. Which is against Art 47- which is not universally accepted. But Ukraine can’t afford that either. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2024, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-ukraine-is-facing-a-troop-shortage-why-dont-they-just-hire-mercenaries/1012086/43 "2024-12-24T20:58:44Z")
Playing around with grey areas of international law isn’t going to do Ukraine any favors. Russia is supported only by criminal regimes, failed states, and fascist pieces of shit. Ukraine is being kept alive by decent and civilized nations because it’s the decent and civilized thing to do, and giving away moral legitimacy is not something they should do lightly. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2024, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-ukraine-is-facing-a-troop-shortage-why-dont-they-just-hire-mercenaries/1012086/44 "2024-12-24T21:01:45Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Playing around with grey areas of international law isn’t going to do Ukraine any favors. Who said they were? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2024, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-ukraine-is-facing-a-troop-shortage-why-dont-they-just-hire-mercenaries/1012086/45 "2024-12-24T21:02:22Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Who said they were? It’s literally the proposal described by the subject of the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2024, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-ukraine-is-facing-a-troop-shortage-why-dont-they-just-hire-mercenaries/1012086/46 "2024-12-24T22:23:38Z")
Might be easier to just pay Russian and North Korean soldiers to defect. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2024, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-ukraine-is-facing-a-troop-shortage-why-dont-they-just-hire-mercenaries/1012086/47 "2024-12-25T02:53:47Z")
I bet there’s already programs to do just that. The Norks have apparently sent over ten thousand soldiers - quite a substantial commitment. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-ukraine-is-facing-a-troop-shortage-why-dont-they-just-hire-mercenaries/1012086.md?page=1)