# If USA is a secular country, how come "in God we trust" is written on its money? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 29, 2012, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-usa-is-a-secular-country-how-come-in-god-we-trust-is-written-on-its-money/620361 "2012-04-29T22:11:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2012, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-usa-is-a-secular-country-how-come-in-god-we-trust-is-written-on-its-money/620361/101 "2012-05-01T16:27:01Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Joe McCarthy was lots of things, but I don’t think he was anti-Semitic. In fact IIRC he had several Jewish aides. Roy Cohn, for one. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2012, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-usa-is-a-secular-country-how-come-in-god-we-trust-is-written-on-its-money/620361/102 "2012-05-01T16:31:13Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > Claiming that the slogan “In God We Trust” is an expression of hatred is absurd. You come across very much like **GEEPERS** when you come out with things like this. On printed money it is an expression of intolerance based on hatred of communism and by proxy atheism. As is “under god” in the amended pledge and the “So help me God” that was added to oaths. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2012, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-usa-is-a-secular-country-how-come-in-god-we-trust-is-written-on-its-money/620361/103 "2012-05-01T16:38:55Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > Roy Cohn, for one. Once again, it is McCarthyism and its supporters, not Joe McCarthy himself, that is accused of being somewhat antisemitic. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2012, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-usa-is-a-secular-country-how-come-in-god-we-trust-is-written-on-its-money/620361/104 "2012-05-01T17:01:50Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Quite honestly yes. I believe He is that involved in all aspects of creation to this level and much more. > > The reason for the saying I believe is God just wants to have His say to the people, bypassing the government’s illusion of trust in government currency. In other words don’t trust this money in your pocket to get you home this evening, it is only because I allow it that you can get home safely. The message is there for those who can heed it. > > It is also Him demonstrating His absolute authority over our nation, along with the famed ‘one nation under (the authority of) God’ which is how I take this line of the pledge. > > It is also Him laughing at our government’s authority by ordering them to place His name above theirs. > > It is amusing in many ways to me that these debates as to why things are, when the answer is because God has made it so and He does what He wants. It bears noting that your God is so inept he can’t defeat an iron chariot. [shiver]Mufasa![/shiver] ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2012, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-usa-is-a-secular-country-how-come-in-god-we-trust-is-written-on-its-money/620361/105 "2012-05-01T17:09:31Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > It bears noting that your God is so inept he can’t defeat an iron chariot. He got stopped cold in Judges 1, but won the rematch in Judges 4. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2012, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-usa-is-a-secular-country-how-come-in-god-we-trust-is-written-on-its-money/620361/106 "2012-05-01T17:14:26Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > He got stopped cold in Judges 1, but won the rematch in Judges 4. By [cheating](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rust_monster), if you ask me. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2012, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-usa-is-a-secular-country-how-come-in-god-we-trust-is-written-on-its-money/620361/107 "2012-05-01T17:15:22Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > He got stopped cold in Judges 1, but won the rematch in Judges 4. Midas didn’t have mud tires back then. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2012, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-usa-is-a-secular-country-how-come-in-god-we-trust-is-written-on-its-money/620361/108 "2012-05-01T17:21:33Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Midas didn’t have mud tires back then. Comedy gold, I tell you. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2012, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-usa-is-a-secular-country-how-come-in-god-we-trust-is-written-on-its-money/620361/109 "2012-05-01T18:22:13Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > The “ism” makes it about the movement more than the man, look at the Peekskill Riots if you think it was not linked with anti-Semitism. The Peekskill riots had vastly more racism involved than anti-Semitism. Beyond that, I don’t think the thugs involved were representative of most anti-Communists because the country was overwhelmingly anti-Communist and many anti-Communists, such as Rep. Jacob Javits spoke out against it. Beyond that, labeling it an example of McCarthyism makes little sense because it occurred almost a full year before McCarthy’s Wheeling, West Virginia speech, at a time when he was hardly known as a fervent anti-communist. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2012, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-usa-is-a-secular-country-how-come-in-god-we-trust-is-written-on-its-money/620361/110 "2012-05-01T19:07:26Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > On printed money it is an expression of intolerance based on hatred of communism and by proxy atheism. I imagine those who pushed for the adoption of “in God we trust” as the country’s official motto saw it as an expression of their values rather than one of hatred. The phrase comes from “The Star Spangled Banner” originally, it has a much longer history than McCarthyism. Here’s a image of a [1873 nickel](http://coins.thefuntimesguide.com/images/blogs/1873_Shield_nickel-public-domain.png) with the phrase on it. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > As is “under god” in the amended pledge and the “So help me God” that was added to oaths. “So help me God”, is actually optional. Under the[No Religious Test Clause](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_religious_test_clause) of the US constitution: > [@](#): > > The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; **but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.** If the phrase is omitted it’s entered as an affirmation rather than an oath. I personally agree that religious phrases are not suitable for use on motto’s, coinage, and in oaths of office, but I’m surprised anyone can get very worked up over this. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2012, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-usa-is-a-secular-country-how-come-in-god-we-trust-is-written-on-its-money/620361/111 "2012-05-01T19:09:45Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > I personally agree that religious phrases are not suitable for use on motto’s, coinage, and in oaths of office, but I’m surprised anyone can get very worked up over this. Would you likewise find _“In Jesus We Trust”_ okay? ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2012, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-usa-is-a-secular-country-how-come-in-god-we-trust-is-written-on-its-money/620361/112 "2012-05-01T19:14:28Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Would you likewise find _“In Jesus We Trust”_ okay? As I just said, I don’t think “in God we trust” is OK, I just don’t think it’s important, and I don’t accept it’s an expression of hatred and intolerance. Was your point that that latter would exclude any non-Christian or non-Muslim theists? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2012, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-usa-is-a-secular-country-how-come-in-god-we-trust-is-written-on-its-money/620361/113 "2012-05-01T19:18:15Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > I personally agree that religious phrases are not suitable for use on motto’s, coinage, and in oaths of office, but I’m surprised anyone can get very worked up over this. A tiny cut here, a single straw there-why should anyone care, right? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2012, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-usa-is-a-secular-country-how-come-in-god-we-trust-is-written-on-its-money/620361/114 "2012-05-01T19:20:35Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > Was your point that that latter would exclude any non-Christian or non-Muslim theists? Kinda sorta. Would you be _“surprised anyone can get very worked up over this”_ if, instead of merely excluding folks who don’t trust in God, it also excluded folks who don’t trust in Jesus? (Or if, given your point about Muslims, our money were marked _“In Muhammad We Trust”_, thereby excluding folks who don’t?) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2012, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-usa-is-a-secular-country-how-come-in-god-we-trust-is-written-on-its-money/620361/115 "2012-05-01T19:39:49Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > A tiny cut here, a single straw there-why should anyone care, right? Slippery slope. Not seeing one. If anything, it’s sloping against this sort of stuff, as the establishment clause is interpreted more narrowly\* over time. \*that is, fewer and fewer things are allowed ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2012, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-usa-is-a-secular-country-how-come-in-god-we-trust-is-written-on-its-money/620361/116 "2012-05-01T19:47:18Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > A tiny cut here, a single straw there-why should anyone care, right? This smacks of the slippery-slope fallacy to me I’m afraid. My attitude is that it’s better to be a bit more tolerant, and to pick the battles that really matter. For example, preventing fundamentalists interfering with science curricula. What do you think is more productive, railing against every expression of religion or engaging with the religious moderates? What I strongly disapprove of is the demonization of people with different religious or political views. > [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Kinda sorta. Would you be _“surprised anyone can get very worked up over this”_ if, instead of merely excluding folks who don’t trust in God, it also excluded folks who don’t trust in Jesus? (Or if, given your point about Muslims, our money were marked _“In Muhammad We Trust”_, thereby excluding folks who don’t?) As an atheist, it makes little difference to me personally. I don’t trust in God one whit, but if someone else expresses the sentiment it doesn’t harm, exclude or offend me. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2012, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-usa-is-a-secular-country-how-come-in-god-we-trust-is-written-on-its-money/620361/117 "2012-05-01T21:11:45Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > I imagine those who pushed for the adoption of “in God we trust” as the country’s official motto saw it as an expression of their values rather than one of hatred. The phrase comes from “The Star Spangled Banner” originally, it has a much longer history than McCarthyism. Here’s a image of a [1873 nickel](http://coins.thefuntimesguide.com/images/blogs/1873_Shield_nickel-public-domain.png) with the phrase on it. > > “So help me God”, is actually optional. Under the[No Religious Test Clause](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_religious_test_clause) of the US constitution: > > If the phrase is omitted it’s entered as an affirmation rather than an oath. > > I personally agree that religious phrases are not suitable for use on motto’s, coinage, and in oaths of office, but I’m surprised anyone can get very worked up over this. Note I was talking about printed money, coinage was marked as “in god we trust”, taken from the francis scott key poem, it was added as the North wished to claim that god was on their side. Both sides had biblical arguments for their position but that is why it was added. Printed money, the Oath and the Pledge were all amended in direct response to the red scare, It is very much related to Americans belief that communism was related to atheism. My point about antisemitism was in relation to the claim that “god” was meant to be inclusive, and that is just false. It was meant to pass legal tests, just as you pointed out on the oath and there was no drive or intention to make the change to appease Jews and Muslims as claimed. You can refuse the god part in oaths and the pledge but until recently it would have been political and social suicide. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2012, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-usa-is-a-secular-country-how-come-in-god-we-trust-is-written-on-its-money/620361/118 "2012-05-01T21:22:39Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > . . . look at the Peekskill Riots . . . Gravy! I’d not heard of that. The summary on Wikipedia was breath-taking. The reaction in the House of Representatives, where the (old-style) Democratic members supported the criminality and condemned the victims was staggering. (Also nauseating.) I’d known about a lot of the evils of the era – the blockading of the March to Selma, etc. But this one, for some reason, I’d never heard of. It’s also a case where organized religion comes off as mixed as the rest of the country. Yes, many churches worked hard to get civil rights laws passed, and to condemn the racism and bigotry of the McCarthy era. But, alas, many other churches worked just as hard to maintain segregation, and to organize the protests which became violent. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2012, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-usa-is-a-secular-country-how-come-in-god-we-trust-is-written-on-its-money/620361/119 "2012-05-01T22:27:04Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Note I was talking about printed money, coinage was marked as “in god we trust”, taken from the francis scott key poem, it was added as the North wished to claim that god was on their side. So it’s not so bad on a coin, but on a banknote it becomes a expression of intolerance? Why assume that the congressmen who lobbied for the adoption of the motto in 1956 were primarily motivated by hatred rather than the wish to promote their values? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2012, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-usa-is-a-secular-country-how-come-in-god-we-trust-is-written-on-its-money/620361/120 "2012-05-01T23:53:56Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Once again, it is McCarthyism and its supporters, not Joe McCarthy himself, that is accused of being somewhat antisemitic. My post was solely to back up **Ibn Warraq’s** assertion that Joe McCarthy had close advisers who were Jewish. I really don’t care if our money says “In God we trust,” “Science is groovy,” “Hail Satan!” or “All glory to the Hypno-toad.” I know a lot of this stuff got put in during the anti-communist fervor of the 50’s, but it’s not something that really bugs me. Also, as far as Antisemitism goes, During the 50s you were much better off being a Jew in the US than in the USSR. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-usa-is-a-secular-country-how-come-in-god-we-trust-is-written-on-its-money/620361.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-usa-is-a-secular-country-how-come-in-god-we-trust-is-written-on-its-money/620361.md?page=7)