# If w is a double-u, why isn't m a double-n? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 14, 2009, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-w-is-a-double-u-why-isnt-m-a-double-n/493039 "2009-04-14T05:34:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-w-is-a-double-u-why-isnt-m-a-double-n/493039/21 "2009-04-14T19:58:47Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > **Ewythr Elc** is Welsh for “Uncle Moose.” An ewythr elc ønce bit my sister… ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-w-is-a-double-u-why-isnt-m-a-double-n/493039/22 "2009-04-14T20:19:50Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > On “w” as a vowel – it appears in English as part of two-letter vowels, i.e., “aw”, “ew” and “ow”. In particular, in the word “ewe”, it’s hard to analyse the “w” as a consonant or even a semi-vowel, since the word has the same pronunciation as “you” and as the name of the letter U. Ewe and you have the same pronunciation? They sound different to me, the first has a slightly longer and more pronounced “e” sound (think ee-yu) while the second doesn’t have that slight “pause” (for me at least) and comes out just yu (or, perhaps, [sub]e[/sub]yu, the "e"ish sound is there, but barely noticeable in this example). Then again I’ve been told I talk weird… ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-w-is-a-double-u-why-isnt-m-a-double-n/493039/23 "2009-04-14T20:38:16Z")
I’ve just checked in three dictionaries (two from the US, one Australian) and they give the same pronunciation key for “ewe” and “you”. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-w-is-a-double-u-why-isnt-m-a-double-n/493039/24 "2009-04-14T20:59:06Z")
For me, “ewe” is like “you”, but it’s different from “ew” as in “Ew, that’s disgusting”, my version of which, I suspect, is akin to what **Jragon** uses for “ewe”. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelQReilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@MichaelQReilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelQReilly)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-w-is-a-double-u-why-isnt-m-a-double-n/493039/25 "2009-04-14T21:38:55Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > And part of it is that the “M” sound is found in most languages, while the “W” sound is not found in a lot of languages – so when scribes from languages that lack a “W” sound have to deal with it, they improvise. One example is the French word “ouest”, derived from the same Germanic source as our word “west” – they write “ou” to get as close as they can to the “w” sound. I’ve always wondered why English seems to be nearly the only language with a “w” sound. Not many other languages have a w and most of the ones that do pronounce it like we pronounce our “v.” To my knowledge, only Polish has an equivalent to our w and they make it with some kind of crazy L figure. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-w-is-a-double-u-why-isnt-m-a-double-n/493039/26 "2009-04-14T22:50:46Z")
> [@MichaelQReilly](#): > > I’ve always wondered why English seems to be nearly the only language with a “w” sound. Not many other languages have a w and most of the ones that do pronounce it like we pronounce our “v.” To my knowledge, only Polish has an equivalent to our w and they make it with some kind of crazy L figure. Japanese kind of does, but the “w” sound, when speaking, generally seems to extend from the preceding word more often than being deliberately pronounced - an “implied” w if you will. (There are two characters Romanized with "w"s, “wa” and “wo”, though the latter is realistically pronounced “o” and the former is more an inflection on the “a” that sounds a lot like a w but still not quite, [disclaimer]at least in the accents of the few people I regularly hear speaking Japanese[/disclaimer]). ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-w-is-a-double-u-why-isnt-m-a-double-n/493039/27 "2009-04-14T22:59:08Z")
Spanish, French, and Italian all have /w/ sounds, though each with their own idiosyncratic phonological rules for it… ---
**Author:** ![MichaelQReilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@MichaelQReilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelQReilly)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-w-is-a-double-u-why-isnt-m-a-double-n/493039/28 "2009-04-14T23:24:35Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > Spanish, French, and Italian all have /w/ sounds, though each with their own idiosyncratic phonological rules for it… It’s pretty limited though isn’t it? I think I read that, in French at least, the w sound really only comes in through import words. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2009, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-w-is-a-double-u-why-isnt-m-a-double-n/493039/29 "2009-04-15T01:55:37Z")
Like “oui”? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2009, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-w-is-a-double-u-why-isnt-m-a-double-n/493039/30 "2009-04-15T15:31:25Z")
> [@MichaelQReilly](#): > > I’ve always wondered why English seems to be nearly the only language with a “w” sound. Not many other languages have a w and most of the ones that do pronounce it like we pronounce our “v.” To my knowledge, only Polish has an equivalent to our w and they make it with some kind of crazy L figure. Arabic, Hawaiian, Bengali, and some dialects of Hindustani/Hindi-Urdu have [w]. Add those up with English, French, and Spanish and I think you’re nearing a majority of the world’s population. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2009, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-w-is-a-double-u-why-isnt-m-a-double-n/493039/31 "2009-04-15T15:52:45Z")
> [@UncleMoose](#): > > I always drive my son crazy with insisting that w is sometimes a vowel - the example of this is the word ‘cwm’ (a mountain bowl-shaped valley). It makes sense though, because it probably should have ended up spelled ‘cuum’ (pronounced like koom). Better examples of “w” as a vowel: “How now brown cow?” ---
**Author:** ![UncleMoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e0b2c6/32.png) [@UncleMoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleMoose)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2009, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-w-is-a-double-u-why-isnt-m-a-double-n/493039/32 "2009-04-15T17:43:39Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > **Ewythr Elc** is Welsh for “Uncle Moose.” Thanks for that, but all I can think is - Why on Earth does the Welsh language have a word for moose? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2009, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-w-is-a-double-u-why-isnt-m-a-double-n/493039/33 "2009-04-15T17:53:58Z")
> [@UncleMoose](#): > > Thanks for that, but all I can think is - Why on Earth does the Welsh language have a word for moose? There are mooses in Europe. They’re called elks. ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2009, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-w-is-a-double-u-why-isnt-m-a-double-n/493039/34 "2009-04-15T17:54:29Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > Like “oui”? Or “bourgeois”. ---
**Author:** ![UncleMoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e0b2c6/32.png) [@UncleMoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleMoose)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-w-is-a-double-u-why-isnt-m-a-double-n/493039/35 "2009-04-16T00:35:31Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > There are mooses in Europe. They’re called elks. Ha - I am not now, nor have I ever been, Uncle Elk.:o Actually, I’ve realized there must be mooses in Europe and Asia. Otherwise, how would Boris and Natasha have known about them? ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-w-is-a-double-u-why-isnt-m-a-double-n/493039/36 "2009-04-16T03:04:58Z")
MEESE! For the last time, it’s one mouse, two meese, and three elken. ---
**Author:** ![UncleMoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e0b2c6/32.png) [@UncleMoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleMoose)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-w-is-a-double-u-why-isnt-m-a-double-n/493039/37 "2009-04-16T13:31:10Z")
> [@Reply](#): > > MEESE! For the last time, it’s one mouse, two meese, and three elken. Confusing mooses and elks :dubious: Confusing mooses and meeses 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Aghris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecccb3/32.png) [@Aghris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aghris)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-w-is-a-double-u-why-isnt-m-a-double-n/493039/38 "2009-04-16T13:46:53Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > Spanish, French, and Italian all have /w/ sounds, though each with their own idiosyncratic phonological rules for it… Dutch has very distinct w’s. Some words: wie, wat, waar, waarom (who, what, where and why) are pronounced with very strong w-sounds. The w is pronounced the same whether the sound is in the beginning, or middle of the word (huwelijk, houweel [marriage, pick]) but differently when at the end of a word (ruw, brouw [rough, brew]), where it is much softer. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-w-is-a-double-u-why-isnt-m-a-double-n/493039/39 "2009-04-17T01:39:09Z")
> [@UncleMoose](#): > > Yup - the other words like cwm from the Welsh is cwr (train tracks made from single long rails?) and cwtch (a cupboard). > > Part of what drove my son crazy was that I used ‘cwm’ as a word when we were playing hangman… (that’ll teach him to doubt me about vowels - he wasn’t happy when he went through aeiouy and didn’t get any letters). > > My last name (Davies) is uncommon except in Wales - my granddad left Wales as a youth (orphaned at 9, came to America alone at age 11…) In addition to meaning cupboard, a lot of my Welsh friends use cwtch to mean something like ‘a really loving hug,’ enough that a few non-Welsh speakers I know use it. Davies is a very common name in England too, and presumably in Wales, though it does, of course, definitely originate in Wales. > [@brewha](#): > > [also off topic] > I first heard that joke from a very inebriated friend. He built up to the punch line by grabbing the invisible ship wheel that was tied to his junk, mimicked moving it back and forth, and exclaimed in his saltiest, scurviest voice, “Arrgh! I’M A PIRATE!” > I still think his version is funnier. > [/aot] Can anyone enlighten me? I don’t know this joke. ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-w-is-a-double-u-why-isnt-m-a-double-n/493039/40 "2009-04-17T20:41:27Z")
[Quote=brewha] I first heard that joke from a very inebriated friend. He built up to the punch line by grabbing the invisible ship wheel that was tied to his junk, mimicked moving it back and forth, and exclaimed in his saltiest, scurviest voice, “Arrgh! I’M A PIRATE!” [/quote] > [@scifisam2009](#): > > Can anyone enlighten me? I don’t know this joke. The pirate is asked about the wheel attached to his genitalia, and replies, “Aaaar, it’s drivin’ me nuts!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-w-is-a-double-u-why-isnt-m-a-double-n/493039.md?page=1)