# If we can afford free K-12 education, why not a free college education? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 8, 2021, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-can-afford-free-k-12-education-why-not-a-free-college-education/939613 "2021-04-08T17:23:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2021, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-can-afford-free-k-12-education-why-not-a-free-college-education/939613/82 "2021-04-20T16:09:14Z")
> [@Porcupine1](#): > > The solution is a true free market system where people can make the choice if they want to spend their resources going to college (there are legitimate reasons to not go, not everyone needs to) and without public funding universities will be forced to cater to the students needs in a way they do not now. I don’t think there’s any way for universities to exist without some sort of public funding, except for maybe a few that cater only to the rich. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2021, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-can-afford-free-k-12-education-why-not-a-free-college-education/939613/83 "2021-04-20T16:21:01Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > They also have vastly lower percentage of their population getting that university education. Porcupine1 didn’t specify the destruction was if it was free _for everyone_. Just free. > [@Oredigger77](#): > > Not a fan of social work? No, not a fan of lumping people who want to tell fairy stories to adults with those who want to tell them to kindergartners… ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2021, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-can-afford-free-k-12-education-why-not-a-free-college-education/939613/84 "2021-04-20T16:55:51Z")
> [@Porcupine1](#): > > But they need students, so they’ll lower their tuition to whatever the bank is willing to loan a student instead of government ‘assurances’. Now your child can get a college degree for a fraction of the cost and enter the work force with little to no debt. You are assuming colleges/universities have the financial wherewithal to reduce tuition and still provide the same level of education. A number of smaller colleges have simply closed in recent years (Burlington College, Holy Family, Concordia University, Marygrove College, Becker, Macmurray, Notre Dame de Namur … the list goes on). By some measures, fully a third of private colleges are under [deep financial stress](https://www.wbur.org/edify/2020/05/08/higher-education-financial-crisis) already, and putting them in further competition for students is going to put a lot more of them out of business. Meanwhile, overstretched state and local governments are subsidizing [a smaller percentage](https://www.cbpp.org/research/state-budget-and-tax/state-higher-education-funding-cuts-have-pushed-costs-to-students) of public college/university funding. In response, public institution tuitions are going up, up, up, meaning students need to borrow more money. Why do you think these trends will reverse and institutions will be able/willing to reduce tuitions? > [@Porcupine1](#): > > We can see parallels here with free k-12. The public school system spends 2 to 3 times more money – per student – than the private school system and it is near universally agreed that private schools provide a better education. Sorry, no, it is NOT anywhere near universally agreed. For starters, private schools tend to be much more selective: many simply won’t accept students who need special services, or have IEPs, or have other kinds of problems, meaning the students who are more costly to serve. See also [this study](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2018/07/26/no-private-schools-arent-better-at-educating-kids-than-public-schools-why-this-new-study-matters/): once you control for parental income and education level, the supposed advantage of private schools disappears entirely: private schools are good at educating the kids who would do well in public schools too. ---
**Author:** ![FigNorton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fignorton/32/5619_2.png) [@FigNorton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FigNorton)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2021, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-can-afford-free-k-12-education-why-not-a-free-college-education/939613/85 "2021-04-20T17:35:24Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > They also have vastly lower percentage of their population getting that university education. If they were trying to put 60+ percent of their of age population through those same colleges they would have to cut quality Are you including people going into the trades? Germany has about a million people going through trades apprenticeships every year. Why are we so set on acting like university education and other post secondary are completely unrelated? ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2021, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-can-afford-free-k-12-education-why-not-a-free-college-education/939613/86 "2021-04-20T17:51:23Z")
I think primarily because a lot of things in the german system that are trade schools, like nursing, are university paths in the US. Other things like carpentry aren’t really taught in the US. I can’t find my notes from college on the german education system to see what percentage of the gymnasium students go the trade school route. It is very difficult to compare between systems because they are so different like only having 9 years of compulsory education in Germany. If you have the numbers I’d love to see it though. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2021, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-can-afford-free-k-12-education-why-not-a-free-college-education/939613/87 "2021-04-20T18:16:01Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > Other things like carpentry aren’t really taught in the US. They are, but it’s usually through [apprenticeships](https://www.carpdc.org/Careers) sponsored by unions or trade associations, rather than formal trade schools. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2021, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-can-afford-free-k-12-education-why-not-a-free-college-education/939613/88 "2021-04-20T18:18:53Z")
That’s true but still makes it harder to compare or subsidize than say a diesel program or HVAC. ---
**Author:** ![FigNorton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fignorton/32/5619_2.png) [@FigNorton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FigNorton)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2021, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-can-afford-free-k-12-education-why-not-a-free-college-education/939613/89 "2021-04-20T18:19:20Z")
Here’s the basics of how it works: [https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/how-germanys-vocational-education-and-training-system-works](https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/how-germanys-vocational-education-and-training-system-works) Key quote: > [@](#): > > More than [one-third](https://www.bibb.de/veroeffentlichungen/de/publication/download/8336) of all pupils graduating from secondary school in Germany enter a vocational training program, of which one-third go on to pursue a single-track, school-based VET and two-thirds the dual-track counterpart. Approximately [68 percent](https://www.bibb.de/dokumente/pdf/bibb_datenreport_2016.pdf) of the latter system’s graduates enter the workforce in the company where they were trained immediately after training. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2021, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-can-afford-free-k-12-education-why-not-a-free-college-education/939613/90 "2021-04-20T18:21:01Z")
So university plus trade school is about the same as just university in the US. Their total educational program would be equivalent to free college in the US. ---
**Author:** ![FigNorton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fignorton/32/5619_2.png) [@FigNorton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FigNorton)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2021, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-can-afford-free-k-12-education-why-not-a-free-college-education/939613/91 "2021-04-20T19:24:10Z")
Not sure I follow. What does that make actual trade schools in the US? ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2021, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-can-afford-free-k-12-education-why-not-a-free-college-education/939613/92 "2021-04-20T21:13:27Z")
It makes the people who go to trade schools (and apprenticeships) unaccounted for and probably unpaid for in the comparison. In Germany 60% of high schoolers do trade schools or university while in the US 60% of high schoolers do just university. ---
**Author:** ![BippityBoppityBoo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bippityboppityboo/32/5745_2.png) [@BippityBoppityBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BippityBoppityBoo)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2021, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-can-afford-free-k-12-education-why-not-a-free-college-education/939613/93 "2021-04-20T21:28:10Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > IS IT near universally agreed? It isn’t universally agreed by a long shot. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2021, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-can-afford-free-k-12-education-why-not-a-free-college-education/939613/94 "2021-04-20T21:35:33Z")
> [@FigNorton](#): > > Are you including people going into the trades? Germany has about a million people going through trades apprenticeships every year. Why are we so set on acting like university education and other post secondary are completely unrelated? Well, I think that for as long as I can remember, there has been a sort of class association with higher university education. Trade school and community college might get you a job as a carpenter or draftsman. A college degree will position you for a job as a civil engineer or architect, which typically command higher salaries and better working conditions. Get an Ivy League degree, maybe go work for the private equity firm that financed the building. Then again, you also have the concept of college as a 4-year camp for children of the affluent to goof off for 4 years before being forced to enter the real world. Or even if they take their studies seriously, treating university as a sort of class indicator. ---
**Author:** ![FigNorton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fignorton/32/5619_2.png) [@FigNorton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FigNorton)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2021, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-can-afford-free-k-12-education-why-not-a-free-college-education/939613/95 "2021-04-20T23:28:56Z")
Well, I wouldn’t support a scheme that only looked towards paying for BA or BSc graduates. I would imagine a rational forecast would not show the country needs 60% of high school grads to get a BA. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2021, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-can-afford-free-k-12-education-why-not-a-free-college-education/939613/96 "2021-04-20T23:49:19Z")
Define which fields “should” be college and which are vocational/trade school. For example, as noted above nursing is voc-ed in Germany and now mostly 4-year BSN stateside. Then add in the employers who want to see a BA/BS in _something_ as a minimum qualification for jobs unrelated to the actual degree. ---
**Author:** ![FigNorton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fignorton/32/5619_2.png) [@FigNorton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FigNorton)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2021, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-can-afford-free-k-12-education-why-not-a-free-college-education/939613/97 "2021-04-20T23:53:02Z")
Obviously there would have to be some shuffling of categories to replicate the German system in the States. No real benefit to me personally defining all that in this thread. We could have a general BA category and some targeted ones for things like nursing, physiotherapy, etc when allocating money/spots. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2021, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-can-afford-free-k-12-education-why-not-a-free-college-education/939613/98 "2021-04-21T00:02:38Z")
> [@BippityBoppityBoo](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > IS IT near universally agreed? > > It isn’t universally agreed by a long shot. Didn’t think so, just checking. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2021, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-can-afford-free-k-12-education-why-not-a-free-college-education/939613/99 "2021-04-21T01:09:35Z")
Nope, it isn’t ---
**Author:** ![Porcupine1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/2acd7d/32.png) [@Porcupine1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Porcupine1)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2021, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-can-afford-free-k-12-education-why-not-a-free-college-education/939613/100 "2021-04-21T02:56:42Z")
But I did specify later in the message that it would “at best provide meritocracy at absorbent costs and at worst prove fiscally unsustainable”. Economics is about how to allocate scarce resources. If you are not allocating resources with a supply and demand price structure then there are two ways to avoid a financial collapse. 1. Ration resources some other way by providing it to a smaller potion of the population as discussed above or 2. reduce the quality to the point providing it is cheap enough to not be unsustainable. And both of those options have side effects of stifling innovation and tend to degenerate further as time goes on because universities will no longer have an incentive to provide a quality product to their students. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2021, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-can-afford-free-k-12-education-why-not-a-free-college-education/939613/101 "2021-04-21T07:36:14Z")
> [@Porcupine1](#): > > But I did specify later in the message that it would “at best provide meritocracy at absorbent costs and at worst prove fiscally unsustainable”. It hasn’t proven unsustainable, and yes, it is a meritocracy of sorts. But no-one has ever suggested “Free University” means anyone gets to study anything they want. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-can-afford-free-k-12-education-why-not-a-free-college-education/939613.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-can-afford-free-k-12-education-why-not-a-free-college-education/939613.md?page=6)