No, Joel. The Golden Rule, as modified (would you really want a masochist to do unto you as he would want to be done unto?), gives an excellent secular and humanistic ethic, involving the fairness, justice, and mercy with which you as a reasonable man would want to be treated and hence are self-enjoined to treat others. Only in its origin as a statement of Jesus, Kung Fu-Tse, and others does it become an integral part of a religion. David? Gaudere? Please confirm, adjust, or refute this thought.
When to that injunction is added the Shema, and the God thus brought into the picture is seen as triune in nature and including the Jesus who is one of the prime sources of the Golden Rule, Christianity enters the picture. But you can (and should) keep the Golden Rule as a good Muslim, a good Jew, a good atheist, a good UU, a good pagan, a good agnostic, a good Zoroastrian, or whatever.
OK, OK. I mean, people have to be “realistic” about how they really want to be treated by others, otherwise you can’t make that argument. I suppose, if you want to be shot, you should go and shoot others, right? I would hate to try and make the argument here – that taking it to the logical conclusion would end you up at xtianity’s doorstep – as like dogs to vomit there would be 50 posters going on about how much they really just want to be shot.
Sorry, Joel. The parenthetical inclusion was intended to head off the page-and-a-half of discursiveness about how the Golden Rule is not written quite right that happened on this board the last time the issue came up about four months ago. I’d value your response to my main point – that the Golden Rule per se is humanistic, not God-focused – and only works in a theocentric ethic as a part of Jesus’s Summary of the Law or other “How God wants you to treat your fellow man” sort of commandment.
Love the Lord God above all else and love you neighbor as yourself.
How do you love God? By keeping his commandments.
How do you love your neighbor? By keeping the Golden Rule.
However, should you realize that keeping his commandments is the fulfillment or logical conclusion to the Golden Rule, God can be removed from the equation without affecting the results.
I honestly don’t want to go into that line of reasoning that we can’t know morality without a reference frame provided by an absolute morality. I never took Philosophy in college, and I would be rapidly outgunned. That, and I think it is inane and leads to no discernable point.
I was trying to play devil’s advocate. I can’t justify anybody killed in the name of God. I suppose a better question would be
“Has religion been a beneficial or a harmful thing over 10000 years?”
Has more harm than good come of religion? Obviously a dumb question, only meant to stimulate debate. But I guess that’s what we all are here for.
One example:
Anthropology was another class I never took in undergrad, so I may be in for a tongue lashing here. Anyway, my point is this : we try and behave like social animals. Most herd animals have a rigid unforgiving social structure, in which if you stray from social convention, you get the boot. To quote the worst line of “The Matrix” – “It’s our way or the highway.”
So, my point (finally) is this. From whence forgiveness? From whence mercy? From whence “turn the other cheek”? This is part of what separates our society from the animals.
This doesn’t fit my best logic - it makes no sense to embrace those who have hurt you or the societal contract. I find a lot of things in society like that.
Another problem is I find it difficult to conceive of a moral that can unite a society without one of two things : religion or utter fear that the neighbors want your head on their pikes. These are IMHO really the two things that have held our society together since we sprang forth from the Olduvai.
Fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.
I think a moral based on reason would be wonderful. I just don’t know if it has the staying power to have brought us out of the caves, to have developed nations, to have brought us where we are today. Yeah, yeah, yeah I know, they have their faults. But, despite all the missteps we have had, I have a 101 key keyboard, an ADI monitor, a PC clone, and GNU Public License to talk to you guys today. And to me, I’d rather be typing to you guys than grunting and throwing stones at the stars.
