# If We Could Make Dogs As Smart As Humans, Should We? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 26, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-could-make-dogs-as-smart-as-humans-should-we/540857 "2010-05-26T19:01:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-could-make-dogs-as-smart-as-humans-should-we/540857/21 "2010-05-26T21:04:39Z")
Yeah, think of a human being with no hands and a 15-year lifespan. Not so enviable now, are they? You could do this with a higher-order mammal – monkeys or apes for example. But they would pretty much be relegated to second-class citizens or worse, slaves. Until they turned against us. And I’m not making a _Planet of the Apes_ allusion; I’m pretty confident that eventually they would resent and rebel against humans. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-could-make-dogs-as-smart-as-humans-should-we/540857/22 "2010-05-26T21:04:46Z")
> [@Staale\_Nordlie](#): > > [Uplift Universe - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uplift_Universe) WOW! I remember reading _Startide Rising_ back in high school. The title was familiar, but when I saw Progenitors it all came back. DAMN! Now I’ll have to add these to my list of books! Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![A.Selene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3ec8ea/32.png) [@A.Selene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A.Selene)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-could-make-dogs-as-smart-as-humans-should-we/540857/23 "2010-05-26T21:30:40Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > \*Humans _are_ animals. We have different strengths and weaknesses. But it’s a mistake to think of humans as something other than a particular species. Of course. I thought I made that clear - the only difference is a complexity of our brains, which give rise to a different kind of mind. It’s a difference of degree rather than kind, which lead me to question if we could change a species like dogs in degree towards us. ---
**Author:** ![A.Selene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3ec8ea/32.png) [@A.Selene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A.Selene)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-could-make-dogs-as-smart-as-humans-should-we/540857/24 "2010-05-26T21:38:41Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Not unless we enhance them in other ways so they can be coequal with us, and not short lived handless dependents. Give them human lifespans or better, and either hands or technology that makes hands irrelevant (waldos controlled via brain implants, say) and then I’d support it. I feel bringing new and different intelligences into the world is a good thing in principle; and dogs being the partners of humanity in many ways deserve special consideration. Yeah, this sounds good. It’s unlikely, but sounds like a cool place to live. > [@Skammer](#): > > Yeah, think of a human being with no hands and a 15-year lifespan. Not so enviable now, are they? > > You could do this with a higher-order mammal – monkeys or apes for example. But they would pretty much be relegated to second-class citizens or worse, slaves. Until they turned against us. And I’m not making a _Planet of the Apes_ allusion; I’m pretty confident that eventually they would resent and rebel against humans. But this definitely sucks. How different a consciousness could they have, how different an existence? Would they really be a human being? In a way, I guess so, but couldn’t they be a “dog being”, and might they find their fifteen years not all that bad? Probably not I guess, but I like to entertain the possibility. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-could-make-dogs-as-smart-as-humans-should-we/540857/25 "2010-05-26T21:47:36Z")
What happens when the dogs no longer see humans as their natural pack leaders? How do dogs react to pack inferiors not knowing their place? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-could-make-dogs-as-smart-as-humans-should-we/540857/26 "2010-05-26T22:15:53Z")
Why couldn’t you set up a system that allowed dogs to communicate? In the book Watchers the people set up ways the dogs could spell things out. After all, we have devices that let Stephen Hawking talk, why couldn’t we have something similar for a human level intelligent dog?? I mean, if you were going to go to the expense of making such a thing, why not go the extra couple of steps and give it vocal cords (and 3 cone color seeing eyes)? And longer lifespans would be child’s play if you could engineer a dog with human level brains…hell, I think we could probably increase the life expectancy of dogs TODAY, let alone in a future where we can engineer to the level posited in the OP. Personally, I think it would be a great idea, as human level intelligence wouldn’t mean exactly like a human. Dogs are already the most genetically manipulated species on earth (always have been), and they are also the closest species to man (inter-species relationship wise). And this theme has been one that has threaded through our fiction for a long time…I can think of a half dozen books off the top of my head that either feature intelligent level dogs as a main theme or have the concept in the book. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-could-make-dogs-as-smart-as-humans-should-we/540857/27 "2010-05-26T22:37:11Z")
> [@A.Selene](#): > > Of course. I thought I made that clear - the only difference is a complexity of our brains, which give rise to a different kind of mind. It’s a difference of degree rather than kind, which lead me to question if we could change a species like dogs in degree towards us. But that’s -not- the only difference. Dog brains function differently than human brains in part because dogs have a host of different sensory inputs and motor skills that humans lack. Dogs don’t lack communication skills for example - they just communicate in ways humans can’t grasp, such as through scent. The point of my remark that humans are animals is that human abilities are not better than dog abilities. The dog doesn’t need human abilities to be a dog. Human ratiocination would not offer them any advantage in their life as dogs. If you turn it around, imagine what giving humans a sense of smell like a dog has would do to society. Imagine going to a party and knowing without asking who was was ovulating, who’d just had sex and with whom, who was drunk, having a baby, had cancer. Imagine no personal body privacy whatsoever, no possibility of concealment, and what that would do to civilization. A dog’s sense of smell is better than a human’s. That doesn’t mean it would be an advantage to a human to medically improve our olfactory abilities to the equal of a dog’s. There’s no way to give dogs human brains without irrevocably making them not-dogs. And honestly, it’s not like the world needs more humans, even if half of them look like Lassie. ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-could-make-dogs-as-smart-as-humans-should-we/540857/28 "2010-05-26T23:06:35Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > There’s no way to give dogs human brains without irrevocably making them not-dogs. And honestly, it’s not like the world needs more humans, even if half of them look like Lassie. Plus, they’d drive us insane with their incessant demands for steak. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-could-make-dogs-as-smart-as-humans-should-we/540857/29 "2010-05-26T23:15:54Z")
> [@NDP](#): > > Plus, they’d drive us insane with their incessant demands for steak. I’m suddenly reminded of the movie ‘Up!’. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-could-make-dogs-as-smart-as-humans-should-we/540857/30 "2010-05-26T23:18:09Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Why couldn’t you set up a system that allowed dogs to communicate? In the book Watchers the people set up ways the dogs could spell things out. After all, we have devices that let Stephen Hawking talk, why couldn’t we have something similar for a human level intelligent dog?? I mean, if you were going to go to the expense of making such a thing, why not go the extra couple of steps and give it vocal cords (and 3 cone color seeing eyes)? And longer lifespans would be child’s play if you could engineer a dog with human level brains…hell, I think we could probably increase the life expectancy of dogs TODAY, let alone in a future where we can engineer to the level posited in the OP. Why bother, though? If you’re going to try to engineer a sapient creature with a good quality of life, why not start with _Homo sapiens sapiens_ instead of _Canis lupus familiaris_? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-could-make-dogs-as-smart-as-humans-should-we/540857/31 "2010-05-26T23:34:49Z")
As others have mentioned, there are dogs that are smarter than your run of the mill idiot human. A more interesting question is when will we be able to make people as trainable, loyal and lovable as dogs? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-could-make-dogs-as-smart-as-humans-should-we/540857/32 "2010-05-26T23:42:55Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > As others have mentioned, there are dogs that are smarter than your run of the mill idiot human. > > A more interesting question is when will we be able to make people as trainable, loyal and lovable as dogs? Ooo! Another intelligent human. Wait until I tell my dog. He’s skeptical. Does anyone have evidence that humans are smarter than dogs? Please, no more human sources, that is so unfair. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-could-make-dogs-as-smart-as-humans-should-we/540857/33 "2010-05-26T23:42:57Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > As others have mentioned, there are dogs that are smarter than your run of the mill idiot human. > > A more interesting question is when will we be able to make people as trainable, loyal and lovable as dogs? Speaking for myself, no dogs are loveable, so this entire post is absurd. Speaking in general, it’s plainly obvious and experimentally provable that your run of the mill human has a much greater intellect that any dog, so it’s still at least halfway absurd at _best_. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-could-make-dogs-as-smart-as-humans-should-we/540857/34 "2010-05-26T23:54:48Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > A more interesting question is when will we be able to make people as trainable, loyal and lovable as dogs? That’s simple: create a subspecies of people that lack the wits to disobey. Immensely unethical, but simple. [QUOTE=Fullmetal Alchemist] Mustang: Dog, huh? I LOVE DOGS!! Fuery: Really?! You mean it? Mustang: Of course! Dogs embody loyalty, they follow their master’s commands above all else! Be a jerk to them and they don’t complain, and they never once beg for a paycheck! Trust me Fuery, they’re the great servants of man! [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![gladtobeblazed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/85f322/32.png) [@gladtobeblazed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gladtobeblazed)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-could-make-dogs-as-smart-as-humans-should-we/540857/35 "2010-05-26T23:56:34Z")
I’m not convinced that two separate intelligent species can coexist on the same planet. We’d be in direct competition for resources, and we can barely manage to not kill our own selves. And who knows what kind of morals and ethics these canines would have. They might be worse than Nazis. Man’s best friend indeed. I think it more likely to be man’s worst enemy. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-could-make-dogs-as-smart-as-humans-should-we/540857/36 "2010-05-27T00:01:11Z")
The least intelligent humans are unfathomably smarter than the most intelligent dogs. Don’t look under the spoiler if you don’t want to shed tears: Same goes for dolphins, sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-could-make-dogs-as-smart-as-humans-should-we/540857/37 "2010-05-27T00:25:45Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > The least intelligent humans are unfathomably smarter than the most intelligent dogs. > > Don’t look under the spoiler if you don’t want to shed tears: > > Same goes for dolphins, sorry. You are either being hyperbolic or absurd. The brightest dogs test out at about the level of a human toddler in terms of word recognition, etc.. There are plenty of mentally handicapped individuals who are in possession of less intellect. Trained service dogs can observe, evaluate, and make decisions for their humans. ---
**Author:** ![Arkcon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Arkcon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arkcon)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-could-make-dogs-as-smart-as-humans-should-we/540857/38 "2010-05-27T00:36:48Z")
I dunno, it seems like a pretty simple, personal opinion – If you read Peanuts and say “Damn, I’d like a dog like Snoopy” or you watch Family Guy and say, “yeah, I’d like to have a dog like Brian” then you’d want an uplifted dog. If you hate the behavior of those two fictional dogs, then you wouldn’t. I’ve always wanted an uplifted animal, all of their instinct, and animal senses intact, and yet, able to reason. I always thought it’d be fun. Dunno what actually happens when my cat tries to vote and gets turned away or decides a little mail fraud justifies earning enough cash to keep her in tuna for the rest of her life. But I think it’s a moot point, there isn’t enough room in their skulls for a brain of that much complexity. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-could-make-dogs-as-smart-as-humans-should-we/540857/39 "2010-05-27T00:45:51Z")
> [@Arkcon](#): > > But I think it’s a moot point, there isn’t enough room in their skulls for a brain of that much complexity. Ah, but at one time a massive computer that could only add numbers took up a huge building, and now we carry machines millions of times more complex in our pockets. We don’t necessarily have to expand the case; we could (somehow, concievably) shrink what’s inside until we can fit enough small parts inside to do the job. ETA: I just realized that the OP could be interpreted in another way: If we had the capability to make dogs as smart as humans, would we have any kind of moral or ethical obligation to do so? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-could-make-dogs-as-smart-as-humans-should-we/540857/40 "2010-05-27T03:32:40Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > The least intelligent humans are unfathomably smarter than the most intelligent dogs. > > Don’t look under the spoiler if you don’t want to shed tears: > > Same goes for dolphins, sorry. Nonsense. There isn’t a dog in the entire US that voted twice for Bush. Most people who voted cannot say the same thing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-could-make-dogs-as-smart-as-humans-should-we/540857.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-could-make-dogs-as-smart-as-humans-should-we/540857.md?page=3)