# If We Could Make Dogs As Smart As Humans, Should We? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 26, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-could-make-dogs-as-smart-as-humans-should-we/540857 "2010-05-26T19:01:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-could-make-dogs-as-smart-as-humans-should-we/540857/41 "2010-05-27T05:21:08Z")
> [@Picard\_Kills\_Kirk](#): > > On the other side, I read a book about a year ago in which this was done, and it ended mankind. I can’t remember the name of the book, but in it, cities became fortresses. Some animals worked with humans, but the vast majority were against. There was a moon base where the rich were living, but most people were stuck on the ground, working to supply the moonbase. It was just a matter of time before the animals would overrun the humans. > > I wish I could remember the name of the book. The setting was somewhere in Texas, around the golden triangle if that rings any bells with anyone. > > ETA: Actually, I may be mixing parts of this story up with another book, “Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?” > > In the book I am trying to remember, it ends with the main character living in a luxury apartment with two wives. > > EETA: I wrote all this without answering the OP. I don’t think we should, based on what I read in this book. Many animals are definitely stronger and faster than we are, and I don’t know if our technology alone could protect us from their physical advantage, and whatever technological ones they develop from being smart. I don’t think this is the book you’re thinking of, but there’s also [Lives of the Monster Dogs](http://www.amazon.com/Lives-Monster-Dogs-Kirsten-Bakis/dp/0446674168/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1274937540&sr=1-1). ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-could-make-dogs-as-smart-as-humans-should-we/540857/42 "2010-05-27T10:08:53Z")
> [@Arkcon](#): > > I dunno, it seems like a pretty simple, personal opinion – If you read Peanuts and say “Damn, I’d like a dog like Snoopy” or you watch Family Guy and say, “yeah, I’d like to have a dog like Brian” then you’d want an uplifted dog. If you hate the behavior of those two fictional dogs, then you wouldn’t. I’ve always wanted an uplifted animal, all of their instinct, and animal senses intact, and yet, able to reason. I always thought it’d be fun. Dunno what actually happens when my cat tries to vote and gets turned away or decides a little mail fraud justifies earning enough cash to keep her in tuna for the rest of her life. But I think it’s a moot point, there isn’t enough room in their skulls for a brain of that much complexity. Why would you assume actual uplifted dogs would act like that, though? The problem is that we don’t know how they’d react. And, as soon as we did this, there’d be no way we could keep dogs as pets. They’d get their own civil rights revolution. Then, since they are superior to us in some ways, having the intelligence to use it probably means we’d become the secondary species. Or at least wars as mentioned above. If we wanted to elevate, we’d need to do it gradually, and on a really small scale. And even then the ethics are questionable, as the dog we’re experimenting on on would have a necessarily cruel life. How do we deal with the problem of quasi-sapient creatures? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-could-make-dogs-as-smart-as-humans-should-we/540857/43 "2010-05-27T11:10:34Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Then, since they are superior to us in some ways, having the intelligence to use it probably means we’d become the secondary species. Or at least wars as mentioned above. I don’t think so, **T**. They’d need a hell of a lot more than human-level intelligence to be able to compete on a technological and military level. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-could-make-dogs-as-smart-as-humans-should-we/540857/44 "2010-05-27T11:15:57Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > I don’t think so, **T**. They’d need a hell of a lot more than human-level intelligence to be able to compete on a technological and military level. What, you don’t think they’d have human allies? ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-could-make-dogs-as-smart-as-humans-should-we/540857/45 "2010-05-27T11:35:48Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I haven’t read those Brin books (whatever they are), but you should check out [City by Clifford Simak](http://www.amazon.com/Sphere-science-fiction-Clifford-Simak/dp/0722178573). Humans do exactly what you’re talking about, and it ends up being beneficial to both species. That’s not how I remember it, given that humans left the world to the dogs and robots (a symbiotic relationship – dogs supply intelligence, robots supply hands). And the uplifted ants were a big problem. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-could-make-dogs-as-smart-as-humans-should-we/540857/46 "2010-05-27T11:51:19Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > What, you don’t think they’d have human allies? No. Their human sympathisers might have canine auxilleries, but that’s a long way from claiming there’s a credible risk that the dogs could come out on top. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-could-make-dogs-as-smart-as-humans-should-we/540857/47 "2010-05-27T12:09:53Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > No. Their human sympathisers might have canine auxilleries, but that’s a long way from claiming there’s a credible risk that the dogs could come out on top. Yes, I suppose humans would never be as loyal to dogs, as dogs were to humans. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-could-make-dogs-as-smart-as-humans-should-we/540857/48 "2010-05-27T13:02:13Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Yes, I suppose humans would never be as loyal to dogs, as dogs were to humans. You completely missed the point. It’s not that the sympathisers would sell the dogs out, but that in any modern alliance between humanoids and quadrupeds, the guys with the opposable thumbs and fine dexterity are going to be doing all the heavy lifting, so to speak. The closest the dogs can get to being the primary species is if the humans decide to humour their claim of being equals, because they’re still dependant on the humans for technology. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-could-make-dogs-as-smart-as-humans-should-we/540857/49 "2010-05-27T13:05:28Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > You completely missed the point. It’s not that the sympathisers would sell the dogs out, but that in any modern alliance between humanoids and quadrupeds, the guys with the opposable thumbs and fine dexterity are going to be doing all the heavy lifting, so to speak. The closest the dogs can get to being the primary species is if the humans decide to humour their claim of being equals, because they’re still dependant on the humans for technology. Who’s saying they’d want to be the “primary species”? They might just want to have more say in where they were walked and what they were given to eat. And some humans might think those rights are worth fighting for, to give them at least the same footing as humans. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-could-make-dogs-as-smart-as-humans-should-we/540857/50 "2010-05-27T13:13:34Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Who’s saying they’d want to be the “primary species”? **BigT** did. ---
**Author:** ![A.Selene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3ec8ea/32.png) [@A.Selene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A.Selene)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-could-make-dogs-as-smart-as-humans-should-we/540857/51 "2010-05-27T13:39:38Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > ETA: I just realized that the OP could be interpreted in another way: If we had the capability to make dogs as smart as humans, would we have any kind of moral or ethical obligation to do so? Yes. This is what I was originally questioning, though the rest of the discussion has been interesting. I guess I wasn’t clear enough in my OP. That seems to be a trend of mine ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-could-make-dogs-as-smart-as-humans-should-we/540857/52 "2010-05-27T15:25:14Z")
> [@A.Selene](#): > > Yes. This is what I was originally questioning, though the rest of the discussion has been interesting. I guess I wasn’t clear enough in my OP. That seems to be a trend of mine ☹ Well frankly, this is a much more interesting question. I’m going to say that no, we don’t have any innate moral or ethical obligation to do so. One reason would be, we don’t really know what that would do to dogs as a species, nor what it would do to human society. The results of well-intentioned actions aren’t always beneficial, and until we know we can achieve the outcome we desire (or at least stand a reasonably good chance of success), it would be folly to try something unprecedented like this. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-could-make-dogs-as-smart-as-humans-should-we/540857/53 "2010-05-31T12:53:58Z")
They are making wonderful progress with gorillas, why not dogs? [http://www.theonion.com/video/scientists-successfully-teach-gorilla-it-will-die,17165/](http://www.theonion.com/video/scientists-successfully-teach-gorilla-it-will-die,17165/) ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-could-make-dogs-as-smart-as-humans-should-we/540857/54 "2010-05-31T13:02:34Z")
Great find. That’s been bookmarked. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-could-make-dogs-as-smart-as-humans-should-we/540857/55 "2010-05-31T13:08:30Z")
At the moment the majority of dogs are pro human. They are loving,faithful and unjudgemental to their owners and many other people. Would increasing their intelligence to human level change this mind set? Would they start thinking competetively rather then as best friends ? But IMO it would be nice to have superdogs but not necessarily of the same intelligence as us. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-could-make-dogs-as-smart-as-humans-should-we/540857/56 "2010-06-01T17:03:50Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > You are either being hyperbolic or absurd. Neither. They’re feeling _threatened._ ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-could-make-dogs-as-smart-as-humans-should-we/540857/57 "2010-06-01T17:19:19Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Speaking in general, it’s plainly obvious and experimentally provable that your run of the mill human has a much greater intellect that any dog, so it’s still at least halfway absurd at _best_. Depends on your definition of “intellect,” maybe. When my dogs are smelling something I’m completely ignorant of it. If it’s a threat, they take pains to impress upon me that they’ve detected a threat, because they can tell I’m completely unaware of it. In general, my reactions to some kinds of danger probably make my dogs pity my mental capacity. As far as “minds” go, however, it’s more correct IMHO to say dogs and humans have co-evolved to be more successful together than either was apart. Studies have claimed that dogs are uniquely good at reading human gestures and facial expressions. We’re not yet at the level of symbiosis, but perhaps mutualism. We may no longer need dogs as much as we once did to thrive, but that development was very, _very_ recent (like since the 1930s, maybe?) and may not stand the test of time (in post-oil society we might need dogs more than we now do, for example). We are in this together, for better or worse. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-could-make-dogs-as-smart-as-humans-should-we/540857/58 "2010-06-01T17:22:04Z")
This may just be me but were I a dog and suddenly “blessed” with human intelligence, I’d take one look at the idiots around me and take to the woods. I guarantee you the local animal control cops wouldn’t get near me on my way out. Woof! ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-could-make-dogs-as-smart-as-humans-should-we/540857/59 "2010-06-01T17:24:50Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Have you even watched planet of the apes. This. They’ll kick our asses. Besides, I’ve met some people that were not too sharp. So dogs are already smarter than some humans I’ve met. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-could-make-dogs-as-smart-as-humans-should-we/540857/60 "2010-06-01T17:27:22Z")
> [@NDP](#): > > Why dogs? Why not cats? That way we could improve their spelling and grammar. We work, they sleep. We feed them, they hang out doing nothing. And sleep. We worry, they don’t. We work for them already. So who is smarter? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-could-make-dogs-as-smart-as-humans-should-we/540857.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-could-make-dogs-as-smart-as-humans-should-we/540857.md?page=4)