# If we knew this was coming, would Gore have won? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 23, 2001, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-knew-this-was-coming-would-gore-have-won/83267 "2001-09-23T00:31:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2001, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-knew-this-was-coming-would-gore-have-won/83267/41 "2001-09-25T00:24:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > There is another, far more likely explanation for all the spoiled ballots in those precincts, and you know perfectly well what it is. Of course, maybe you really \*are[/i[ arguing that blacks don’t know how to vote? ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2001, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-knew-this-was-coming-would-gore-have-won/83267/42 "2001-09-25T00:24:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \*There is another, far more likely explanation for all the spoiled ballots in those precincts, and you know perfectly well what it is. \*\* 1. I actually don’t know what explanation you’re referring to. I guess you may be referring to the use of punch cards. However, that wouldn’t explain why Blacks allegedly had more problems than non-Blacks in the districts using punch cards. 2. I grant that there could be other explanations (if the study were valid). Unfortunately, many will believe the explanation I mentioned, regardless. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2001, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-knew-this-was-coming-would-gore-have-won/83267/43 "2001-09-25T00:27:29Z")
And in the meantime, you’ll just claim that blacks can’t vote properly? Very classy. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2001, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-knew-this-was-coming-would-gore-have-won/83267/44 "2001-09-25T00:28:19Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by minty green \* \*\* > [@](#): > > Of course, maybe you really _are_ arguing that blacks don’t know how to vote? \*\* I thought I was clear. I’m arguing that the Civil Rights Commission Report is invalid. Remember I called that report “an embarassment.” ---
**Author:** ![nolo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/258eb7/32.png) [@nolo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nolo)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2001, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-knew-this-was-coming-would-gore-have-won/83267/45 "2001-09-25T00:41:03Z")
I refer, once again, to: [http://www.usccr.gov/vote2000/stdraft1/ap1.htm](http://www.usccr.gov/vote2000/stdraft1/ap1.htm) Note the spoilage rates of counties using central optical systems and punchcard systems. Also note the spoilage rates of counties using precint optical systems. Notice a trend? December, clearly you’ve read nothing other than what your closed mind will allow. You pre-ordained your conclusion about the results to the point that you are latching onto faulty premises (Lott) without regard for their accuracy. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2001, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-knew-this-was-coming-would-gore-have-won/83267/46 "2001-09-25T00:41:29Z")
Then why the gratuitous racist jab? I know you’re not a bigot, **december** , but race-baiting is still wrong. And you _were_ using race to provoke a reaction, which is as cheap as it gets in political discourse. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2001, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-knew-this-was-coming-would-gore-have-won/83267/47 "2001-09-25T01:29:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \*Oh come now, december. Stop putting words in people’s mouths. There is another, far more likely explanation for all the spoiled ballots in those precincts, and you know perfectly well what it is. \*\* **Minty** , I’m sorry to be persistent, but I’m still unsure of which explanation you’re referring to. > [@](#): > > Then why the gratuitous racist jab? I know you’re not a bigot, december, Thanks for the last sentence. I think it’s a case of shooting the messenger of bad news. You’re right that I was jabbing nolo (for what should be obvious reasons.) However, I also do believe that racists and those on the fence are apt to interpret this report badly. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by nolo_ Note the spoilage rates of counties using central optical systems and punchcard systems. Also note the spoilage rates of counties using precint optical systems. Notice a trend? **nolo** , are you arguing that the difference in spoilage rate is due to different voting systems, rather than race? If not, what’s your point? ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2001, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-knew-this-was-coming-would-gore-have-won/83267/48 "2001-09-25T01:46:16Z")
“Explanation” should have been plural. Start with woefully inadequate punch-card voting systems, then add terrible maintenance of the machines, poor or non-existent training of pollworkers, and a number of isolated, but troubling, reports of voter intimidation. I think that pretty much takes care of the discrepancy, and only a person who’s already a bigot would ignore these factors to reach the conclusion that minorities are too stupid to vote straight. Whatever nolo’s other problems are, bigotry is apparently not one of them, so attempting to get a rise out of him by facetious use of a bigoted argument was still nothing more than race-baiting. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2001, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-knew-this-was-coming-would-gore-have-won/83267/49 "2001-09-25T03:12:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by nolo \* > > If you’re a lawyer, I don’t know how you survive, minty. > > Thanks to actually knowing what I’m talking about, I survive very well indeed. 😃 And I thank you for your touching concern. > > Anybody wanna take bets on how long it takes poor little **nolo** to get his/her very first Pit thread? \*\* No fair! Nolo can’t get a pit thread before me! Wait, I don’t want one. Never mind. \ As for the OP…this isn’t the type of debate to spawn unbiased opinion. I think Bush would still have won, but I also voted for him. I suspect that most Gore voters would think that Gore would have won. Any Nader voters out there? I’ll do my level best to be non-biased for a moment…If we “knew this was coming”, I think Gore probably would have been implicated in the plot because Clinton, the most likely source of information, would have been seen as involved(because he’s no Miss Cleo and would have gotten the info somewhere, probably unsavory) and Gore didn’t take the most diplomatic course when trying to separate himself from his predecessor. It would have been even more Hamlet-like “Al Gore doth protest too much” which would given people that fatal suspicion of his own involvement in the terrorist plot. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2001, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-knew-this-was-coming-would-gore-have-won/83267/50 "2001-09-25T07:24:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\*“Explanation” should have been plural. Start with woefully inadequate punch-card voting systems, then add terrible maintenance of the machines, poor or non-existent training of pollworkers, and a number of isolated, but troubling, reports of voter intimidation. I think that pretty much takes care of the discrepancy, and only a person who’s already a bigot would ignore these factors to reach the conclusion that minorities are too stupid to vote straight. Whatever nolo’s other problems are, bigotry is apparently not one of them, so attempting to get a rise out of him by facetious use of a bigoted argument was still nothing more than race-baiting. \*\* Thanks, **Minty**. Note that “too stupid” is your phrase, not mine. Your explanation conceivable to me, and it shows how dishonestly the report was presented. **Nolo** had written: > [@](#): > > over 14% of Florida’s black voter’s ballots were spoiled (according to the recent Civil Rights Commission report) due to inferior voting technology in predominantly black districts. In contrast, only 1% of nonblack Florida ballots were spoiled. I assume that this is an accurate quote from the report or from the media. The key is the use of the passive voice: “…ballots were spoiled…” Who spoiled them? The media presented this report as if there were some conspiracy to knock out Black votes (without quite saying so.) However, Lichtman explicitly says that the spoiled ballots weren’t filled in properly. Presumably the voters themselves made the punching errors. There’s no evidence that outside parties, such as voting officials, were spoiling the ballots. That would be an incredible scandal. It would also be especially preposterous, because in the great majority of cases the voting officials in heavily Black districts were Democrats. So, a more accurate rendition of {b]nolo’s\*\* statement would be \* over 14% of Black voters spoiled their ballots by improperly filling them out.\* Let me repeat: _I don’t buy any part of this study._ But, for those do agree with the study, that’s what the conclusion implies. Repeating the question I alluded to earlier: If the reason for the disparity in apoiled ballots was differences in technology, then why didn’t Lichtman’s study conclude that differences in technology was the factor that best correllated with the per cent of spoiled votes? I haven’t read far enough to get Lichtman’s answer yet… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-knew-this-was-coming-would-gore-have-won/83267.md?page=2)