# If we recognized China's right to absorb Afghanistan, would they? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 20, 2009, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-recognized-chinas-right-to-absorb-afghanistan-would-they/510876 "2009-09-20T21:01:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-recognized-chinas-right-to-absorb-afghanistan-would-they/510876/21 "2009-09-22T05:51:04Z")
> [@Cicero](#): > > Why would they want it? Oil and natural gas. As these become more expensive - assuming they do- that could be a driver. Sure, if anyone could complete a pipeline through Afghanistan its China. Very convenient for them too, a new source of oil via the Indian Ocean. Of course it is absurd though. The war is being fought to _prevent_ this pipe from being built, so the Caspian can be tapped to the West instead. The UN would never ratify China’s ‘right’ to absorb A-stan as the Illuminati would never countenance such a drastic reversal. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-recognized-chinas-right-to-absorb-afghanistan-would-they/510876/22 "2009-09-22T07:10:55Z")
It would be kinda cool to watch them try, though. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-recognized-chinas-right-to-absorb-afghanistan-would-they/510876/23 "2009-09-22T07:54:32Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > The idea that Afghanistan is some unconquerable territory is ridiculous, and doesn’t live up to any sort of serious historical analysis. The British did it before universal suffrage and in another era of limited and controlled media - the USA may currently have the second but not the first. As the last 40 years have shown, places are pretty unconquerable when the voters back home take against the (ground war) tactics of 19th century military imperialism. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-recognized-chinas-right-to-absorb-afghanistan-would-they/510876/24 "2009-09-22T08:01:47Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Sure. But I wasn’t the one who (falsely) brought up the British’s campaign in Afghanistan as evidence that Afghanistan is some sort of unconquerable territory, populated by uber-warriors (as these threads so often go). The fact of the matter is the British crushed the Afghans (the casualty ratio was something like 15:1, IIRC), installed a friendly leader, then left (probably because they realised the country was an uninhabitable shithole). > > If the situation now is so hopelessly different to how it was as little as one hundred years ago, comparisons between the current war and Alexander the Great’s campaign, or the British campaign, are specious, and the only attempt at conquering Afghanistan that is of any relevance is the USSR’s invasion in the 1980s (and even then, that’s not a straight comparison!). The British “succeeded” in Afghanistan in 1878-1880 only after changing the aims of the expedition from conquest to influence, uptil then it had been a pretty dismal time. And even that “succees” was fleeting, the Russian influence in Afghanistan increased and in 1893, the British signed the Durant line accord which forms todays Afghan-Pakistan border whereby the British ceded lot of territory (including, Balkh and Jalalabad) in exchange for a defensible border for the possessions in India. And secondly you have missed the point, its not the _taking_ of Afghanistan that is difficult, its just that _holding_ is… ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-recognized-chinas-right-to-absorb-afghanistan-would-they/510876/25 "2009-09-22T09:14:12Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Could not do what? The British decimated the Afghans in the Second Anglo-Afghan war, put down an insurrection, and installed a puppet leader, directly controlling Afghanistan’s foreign relations. The idea that Afghanistan is some unconquerable territory is ridiculous, and doesn’t live up to any sort of serious historical analysis. Oh, come on. If conquering the place were the issue, America has already won. Heck, the USSR won too, for a short while. The hard part is not _conquering_ Afghanistan, it is holding it for any length of time, pacifying it, and turning it into either a compliant part of your empire, or a nice, stable vassal state. ---
**Author:** ![the\_first\_supraliminal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f475e1/32.png) [@the\_first\_supraliminal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_first_supraliminal)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-recognized-chinas-right-to-absorb-afghanistan-would-they/510876/26 "2009-09-22T15:18:41Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Afghanistan is not Tibet and its not full of monks, I don’t think the Chinese would succeed. > > If people don’t want you in their country, they’ll make it clear even if it takes decades. You’ve convinced me to want the Chinese in there. They can’t win, but it will tie them up for decades. Simplifies our hassles with Taiwan and N.Korea. Where’s our downside if the Chinese try and fail? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-recognized-chinas-right-to-absorb-afghanistan-would-they/510876/27 "2009-09-22T15:57:18Z")
> [@the\_first\_supraliminal](#): > > Where’s our downside if the Chinese try and fail? A bunch of dead Afghanis and additional chaos that would probably be beneficial to terrorists and bad for neighboring countries. Oh, you said _our_ downside. I guess there’s none, if that is your perpsective on things. :rolleyes: As other posters have noted, though, there’s no reason to believe the Chinese government would want to get involved in Afghanistan. It makes no sense and they would not volunteer to clean up someone else’s mess. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-recognized-chinas-right-to-absorb-afghanistan-would-they/510876/28 "2009-09-22T16:43:21Z")
> [@the\_first\_supraliminal](#): > > You’ve convinced me to want the Chinese in there. They can’t win, but it will tie them up for decades. Simplifies our hassles with Taiwan and N.Korea. Where’s our downside if the Chinese try and fail? Clearly all we need is for someone to triple-dog dare them. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-recognized-chinas-right-to-absorb-afghanistan-would-they/510876/29 "2009-09-22T17:06:24Z")
If the idea is that every superpower of the world should eventually take a crack at Afghanistan, well, I suppose it’s China’s turn. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-recognized-chinas-right-to-absorb-afghanistan-would-they/510876/30 "2009-09-22T17:11:48Z")
I think it’s more likely mutant space alien kit foxes will come down and absorb Afghanistan than China would. It’s hard to see something more unlikely than the US and our allies bolting from Afghanistan and China moving in to try and occupy the country. I’m sure there is something more unlikely…I just can’t think of it right now… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Shecky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/85e7bf/32.png) [@Shecky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shecky)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-recognized-chinas-right-to-absorb-afghanistan-would-they/510876/31 "2009-09-22T18:24:16Z")
_The Kite Runner_ explained the reason pretty well. Essentially, the Afghans don’t mind being under the jurisdiction of anyone, as long as it doesn’t interfere with their lives. When the power in charge tries to change the Aghans’ way of life, THEN there’s a real problem. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-recognized-chinas-right-to-absorb-afghanistan-would-they/510876/32 "2009-09-22T20:09:02Z")
I’m a little confused as to how this even compares to our current situation. America didn’t even try to conquer Afganistan. Why would we want ot? We just deposed an exceedingly hostile regime which barely rose above the level of pond scum. Currently, there’s some issues with Taliban resurgence, but that’s as much caused by unrest in Pakistan as anything else. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-recognized-chinas-right-to-absorb-afghanistan-would-they/510876/33 "2009-09-23T01:27:40Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > America didn’t even try to conquer Afganistan. Why would we want ot? We just deposed an exceedingly hostile regime which barely rose above the level of pond scum. Currently, there’s some issues with Taliban resurgence, but that’s as much caused by unrest in Pakistan as anything else. I’m sorry, there just aren’t enough rolleye smileys in the world to deal with this. And I think I sprained my personal eyebrows. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-recognized-chinas-right-to-absorb-afghanistan-would-they/510876/34 "2009-09-23T06:07:07Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > Alexander the Great could not do it. > > Ghengis Kahn could not do it. > > The British Empire, at its height (and in control of neighboring lands), could not do it. > > The USSR, at its height (and in control of neighboring lands), could not do it. > > America, the current dominant superpower, can’t do it. > > What makes you think that China could do it, or that they would foolish enough to want to try? China is welcome to try. I quoted Kipling when we tried it, and over a century later it stands: _When you’re wounded and left on Afghanistan’s plains, And the women come out to cut up what remains, Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains An’ go to your Gawd like a soldier._ ---
**Author:** ![Brainiac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8797f3/32.png) [@Brainiac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brainiac)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-recognized-chinas-right-to-absorb-afghanistan-would-they/510876/35 "2009-09-25T13:42:51Z")
The Taliban are religious extremists. Mao wrote the book on getting rid of them. Plow the temples, kill the priests. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-recognized-chinas-right-to-absorb-afghanistan-would-they/510876/36 "2009-09-25T17:53:56Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > Alexander the Great could not do it. > > Ghengis Kahn could not do it. > > The British Empire, at its height (and in control of neighboring lands), could not do it. > > The USSR, at its height (and in control of neighboring lands), could not do it. > > America, the current dominant superpower, can’t do it. > > What makes you think that China could do it, or that they would foolish enough to want to try? Ghengis Khan couldn’t do it? Wikipedia says the Khans held Afghanistan for 300 years. And the Arabs held it for a similar amount of time. ---
**Author:** ![Aelita\_Daystar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@Aelita\_Daystar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aelita_Daystar)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-recognized-chinas-right-to-absorb-afghanistan-would-they/510876/37 "2009-09-25T19:07:25Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > Alexander the Great could not do it. > > Ghengis Kahn could not do it. > > The British Empire, at its height (and in control of neighboring lands), could not do it. > > The USSR, at its height (and in control of neighboring lands), could not do it. > > America, the current dominant superpower, can’t do it. > > What makes you think that China could do it, or that they would foolish enough to want to try? Alexander the Great couldn’t do it? Actually I’m quite sure that he did do it. That region was successfully conquered and incorporated into Alexander’s kingdom. After Alexander’s death it remained under Seleucid control for a time, then it was conquered multiple times. It became part of the Mauryan Empire of India, part of the Greco-Bactrian Kingdom, Parthia. Eventually it was conquered by an initial Muslim invansion, then it was conquered by Genghis Khan, then by the Mughals. I think that the reason that the USSR couldn’t do it was because the Mujahadeen were being supplied with weapons by the US. Most importantly the AA missiles. They couldn’t fight the Soviet gunships effectively. I don’t think the USSR would not have been able to if the US had stayed out of it. Anyways, I think these “couldn’t do it” things are wrong in most of those cases. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-recognized-chinas-right-to-absorb-afghanistan-would-they/510876/38 "2009-09-26T07:46:30Z")
Forget about the possibility of a Chinese failure - how about the dangers of a Chinese success? Can anyone explain how bringing a new superpower into the Middle East would be to anyone’s benefit? ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-recognized-chinas-right-to-absorb-afghanistan-would-they/510876/39 "2009-09-26T08:36:57Z")
You folks may not have noticed but China does not generally interfere in the affairs of other nations, whether militarily or at the UN. So, for example, it won’t support sanctions against Iran, though it might abstain. It suits the West to classify Tibet differently and there may be a case for that, but not through Chinese eyes; for them it’s a domestic matter. It also suits US interests to portray China as a great potential aggressor. Not so. No evidence now, no evidence in history. > [@](#): > > China has long said that it sticks to a doctrine of “non interference” in the affairs of other nations, in part because it does not want the United States or Europe criticizing its behavior or policies. > > It is also wary of signing up to multi-lateral efforts to pressure countries, for similar reasons, except in cases like North Korea, which is a pressing security concern close to home. > > In fact, China does meddle in domestic politics abroad, but most often when it involves its long-standing fight to build diplomatic ties with countries that recognize the self-ruled island of Taiwan, claimed by Beijing as its own. [Reuters](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=532818) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-recognized-chinas-right-to-absorb-afghanistan-would-they/510876/40 "2009-09-26T10:05:23Z")
> [@](#): > > You folks may not have noticed but China does not generally interfere in the affairs of other nations, whether militarily or at the UN. So, for example, it won’t support sanctions against Iran, though it might abstain. That’s a pretty rosy-eyed view of China. Leaving aside Tibet and Taiwan (which are only “domestic” issues because China has unilaterally declared them so) China has sent troops into Korea, India, Vietnam, and Laos. It’s also had hostile border disputes with Bhutan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Malaysia, Mongolia, the Philippines, Russia, and Tajikstan. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-recognized-chinas-right-to-absorb-afghanistan-would-they/510876.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-we-recognized-chinas-right-to-absorb-afghanistan-would-they/510876.md?page=3)