# If/when the U.S. fails in Iraq, will the Right propagate a new Dolchstosslegende? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 8, 2007, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-when-the-u-s-fails-in-iraq-will-the-right-propagate-a-new-dolchstosslegende/425670 "2007-11-08T17:19:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2007, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-when-the-u-s-fails-in-iraq-will-the-right-propagate-a-new-dolchstosslegende/425670/61 "2007-11-09T21:16:42Z")
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**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2007, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-when-the-u-s-fails-in-iraq-will-the-right-propagate-a-new-dolchstosslegende/425670/62 "2007-11-09T21:25:24Z")
[QUOTE=Sitnam] \ [/QUOTE] \< unsurprised to see an attempt to use Godwin’s Law to silence others \> ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2007, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-when-the-u-s-fails-in-iraq-will-the-right-propagate-a-new-dolchstosslegende/425670/63 "2007-11-09T21:37:16Z")
[QUOTE=Algher] I did quote the summary. It stated clearly that many historians (she is citing others there - a standard thing to do in academic texts) consider the cessation of US aid to the South Vietnamese government to have been a key driver in the government’s eventual fall. If you choose not to read the quote, nor respond to it, nor cite an opposing opinion, that is not me playing games. The article I linked to has a couple of footnotes, one is to this book: [http://www.mcfarlandpub.com/book-2.php?id=978-0-7864-1302-7](http://www.mcfarlandpub.com/book-2.php?id=978-0-7864-1302-7) [/quote] OK, I didn’t understand that you were using that quote as evidence. I mean, she’s saying that other people say that the U.S. aid cutoff caused the fall of Saigon, without even naming who. She’s not claiming it as her own assertion, at least in that quote. The book in the footnote is published by Arlington House, which was Regnery before there was Regnery. It’s called _Betrayal in Vietnam_. Real scholarly. Anyhow, the _legislation cutting off future aid_ wasn’t passed until December 1974. According to Wikipedia, the text of the legislation read “that after June 30, 1976, no military assistance shall be furnished to South Vietnam unless authorized under the Foreign Assistance Act of 1961 or the Foreign Military Sales Act.” Call me dense, but I don’t grasp how a cutoff in aid that didn’t take place until long after the fall of Saigon could have caused the fall of Saigon. > [@](#): > > That is not what I meant (everyone leave overnight). I was stating that if the bull left the china shop (to use your poorly thought out analogy), it would not solve the problems. I completely agree with that. > [@](#): > > The analogy is poor, and is a meme that keeps the discussion from working. when one uses the “bull in a china shop” analogy one is arguing that simply removing the bull will end the damage. It will NOT end the damage. No, I’m not arguing that. I’m just arguing that once we’re out of there, the damage _that we’re doing_ will cease. And we’ve done plenty, and opened the floodgates of much more. > [@](#): > > Iraq is not a china shop, in that it was a wonderfull, fully functioning location prior to our arrival. Wonderful? No. But it was functioning. People had jobs, went to school, had water and electricity, walked the streets in safety, lived their lives, raised children. If you didn’t speak out against Saddam, you weren’t likely to have bad shit happen to you. Now you can get shot for being a Sunni or a Shi’ite. If you’re a Sunni and married a Shi’ite, or vice versa, five years ago when nobody thought twice about doing so, there are people who will make you, at gunpoint, abandon your spouse. Your destiny is in the hands of armed militias - used to be different ones on different days, but it appears that the Shi’ites have pretty much won the Battle of Baghdad. OK, not a china shop. A bull in the fucking Pottery Barn. Ain’t it great how much broken crockery we own? More of it all the time. We don’t know how to fix it, but we own it. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2007, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-when-the-u-s-fails-in-iraq-will-the-right-propagate-a-new-dolchstosslegende/425670/64 "2007-11-09T23:31:49Z")
I’m just wondering if the disaster we are in will be enough to make us swear off military intervention…it DOESN’T WORK! I’m sick of it-after Vietnam, Somalia, Iraq-isn’t it enough! Of course, the fall of Musharraf (Pakistan) will trap us in Afghanistan-wonder what future historians will make of the whole sorry mess. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-when-the-u-s-fails-in-iraq-will-the-right-propagate-a-new-dolchstosslegende/425670/65 "2007-11-10T00:08:01Z")
[QUOTE=ralph124c] I’m just wondering if the disaster we are in will be enough to make us swear off military intervention..it DOESN’T WORK! [/QUOTE] Sometimes it does. When Clinton promised the Albanian Kosovar refugees, “You will go home, safe and free,” he applied military force and made it stick, without the result backfiring on the U.S. in any way. (It did backfire in that there were some counteratrocities and ethnic cleansing by Albanians against Serbians, for a short while on a limited scale, but any disinterested third party would say even that was preferable to the grisly alternative.) Military intervention is like major surgery: Sometimes it helps, but in view of the cost and damage, it should be done only as a last resort, after all alternative treatments have been ruled out or exhausted, after you’ve established that not treating the condition at all is not a viable option, and always make sure you get a second opinion. That was not done in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-when-the-u-s-fails-in-iraq-will-the-right-propagate-a-new-dolchstosslegende/425670/66 "2007-11-10T00:16:48Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] \< unsurprised to see an attempt to use Godwin’s Law to silence others \> [/QUOTE] \ ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-when-the-u-s-fails-in-iraq-will-the-right-propagate-a-new-dolchstosslegende/425670/67 "2007-11-10T01:37:07Z")
To answer the question about [Robertson](http://www.sullivan-county.com/nf0/nov_2000/falwell_911.htm) > [@](#): > > JERRY FALWELL: And I agree totally with you that the Lord has protected us so wonderfully these 225 years. And since 1812, this is the first time that we’ve been attacked on our soil and by far the worst results. And I fear, as Donald Rumsfeld, the Secretary of Defense, said yesterday, that this is only the beginning. And with biological warfare available to these monsters - the Husseins, the Bin Ladens, the Arafats - what we saw on Tuesday, as terrible as it is, could be miniscule if, in fact - God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve. > > PAT ROBERTSON: Jerry, that’s my feeling. I think we’ve just seen the antechamber to terror. We haven’t even begun to see what they can do to the major population. > > JERRY FALWELL: The ACLU’s got to take a lot of blame for this. > > PAT ROBERTSON: Well, yes. > > JERRY FALWELL: And, I know that I’ll hear from them for this. But, throwing God out successfully with the help of the federal court system, throwing God out of the public square, out of the schools. The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way - all of them who have tried to secularize America - I point the finger in their face and say “you helped this happen.” > > PAT ROBERTSON: Well, I totally concur, and the problem is we have adopted that agenda at the highest levels of our government. And so we’re responsible as a free society for what the top people do. And, the top people, of course, is the court system. > > JERRY FALWELL: Pat, did you notice yesterday the ACLU, and all the Christ-haters, People For the American Way, NOW, etc. were totally disregarded by the Democrats and the Republicans in both houses of Congress as they went out on the steps and called out on to God in prayer and sang “God Bless America” and said “let the ACLU be hanged”? In other words, when the nation is on its knees, the only normal and natural and spiritual thing to do is what we ought to be doing all the time - calling upon God. > > PAT ROBERTSON: Amen So now, since God his withdrawn His protection for our sins, it’s up to Rudy instead. We’re fucked, ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-when-the-u-s-fails-in-iraq-will-the-right-propagate-a-new-dolchstosslegende/425670/68 "2007-11-10T01:40:41Z")
[Cites for RW Iraq dolchstossing dating back as far as 2004.](http://www.dkosopedia.com/wiki/Dolchstoss_Republicans) ---
**Author:** ![Eolbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d07c76/32.png) [@Eolbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eolbo)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-when-the-u-s-fails-in-iraq-will-the-right-propagate-a-new-dolchstosslegende/425670/69 "2007-11-10T02:23:09Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] Anyhow, the _legislation cutting off future aid_ wasn’t passed until December 1974. According to Wikipedia, the text of the legislation read “that after June 30, 1976, no military assistance shall be furnished to South Vietnam unless authorized under the Foreign Assistance Act of 1961 or the Foreign Military Sales Act.” Call me dense, but I don’t grasp how a cutoff in aid that didn’t take place until long after the fall of Saigon could have caused the fall of Saigon. [/QUOTE] You are correct but its worth pointing out though that while not a complete cut-off, the level of aid _actually_ provided to the South Vietnamese was substantially reduced in 1974, by around a third if memory serves me rightly. This was certainly a contributing factor in reduced South Vietnamese military capacity but the prime reason for the collapse was nothing more then the ARVN was poorly led and motivated and no level of military aid was going to save it from its more cohesive enemy. SVN just wasn’t viable without direct US combat involvement. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-when-the-u-s-fails-in-iraq-will-the-right-propagate-a-new-dolchstosslegende/425670/70 "2007-11-10T03:55:14Z")
**Der Trihs** and **Sitnam** , quit sniping at each other or go open a Pit thread. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-when-the-u-s-fails-in-iraq-will-the-right-propagate-a-new-dolchstosslegende/425670/71 "2007-11-10T05:23:28Z")
> [@](#): > > We’re still there in Korea, but our soldiers haven’t done any real fighting since 1953. Technically the war in Korea is still going on. There are a million troops there who still remain on battle alert. Patrols are sent out to watch the enemy, shots are still occasionally fired, and people are still occasionally killed. I’ll grant that things are cooler since the 1953 ceasefire but I’d hardly describe it as peace. And it’s not a model I’d like to see us emulating elsewhere - I’d hardly want to tell the troops now serving in Iraq that their great-grandchildren will someday be serving in the same places but by then the odds of them getting killed will be much lower. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2007, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-when-the-u-s-fails-in-iraq-will-the-right-propagate-a-new-dolchstosslegende/425670/72 "2007-11-11T19:47:27Z")
So, is our fate to be endlessly involved in wars around the world? Destroying our economy, and killing our young people? Great future ahead-why can’t we just stay out of these places for a change? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2007, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-when-the-u-s-fails-in-iraq-will-the-right-propagate-a-new-dolchstosslegende/425670/73 "2007-11-12T16:03:40Z")
[QUOTE=ralph124c] So, is our fate to be endlessly involved in wars around the world? Destroying our economy, and killing our young people? Great future ahead-why can’t we just stay out of these places for a change? [/QUOTE] That would be fine with me. Not only would I be happy to see fewer of _our_ young people get killed, but I’d like to see us kill fewer people elsewhere around the world. There used to be T-shirts and bumper stickers that said: “Join the army: travel to exotic, distant lands, meet exciting, unusual people, and kill them.” It’s all too true nowadays. I might should check the Northern Sun catalog and see if they’re still selling those. [Sure enough, they are](http://www.northernsun.com/n/s/1002.html?id=wh6cP7jf). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-when-the-u-s-fails-in-iraq-will-the-right-propagate-a-new-dolchstosslegende/425670.md?page=3)