# If yo're that opposed to illegal immigrants...... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 17, 2006, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726 "2006-03-17T12:16:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/41 "2006-03-17T16:22:45Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by betenoir > The basic fact is if it weren’t for “illegals” getting paid (being illegal) much less that a legal wage, fruit (Just as an example) would be 2X or more then it is now. I went and dug up this from a post of mine in another thread: > [@](#): > > …I did hear a number on the radio though, that said that the percentage of the cost of a head fruits and vegetables was very low. I had this confirmed by Ira Mehlman of FAIR (I attended a panel discussion on immigration at The Commonwealth Club). Concerned about the some of the very issues you raise, after the discussion I asked him if he knew what percent of the cost of vegetables was atrtibuted to farm labor. His reply was that farm labor costs accounted for just 10% of the cost of a head of lettuce, the rest being determined by transportation, packaging, fertilizer, herbicides and pesticides. So if a head of lettuce costs $1.00, the farm labor cost is 10 cents. So we could double the farm labor costs and get a head of lettuce for $1.10. Or triple it and pay $1.20. (Labor costs for harvesting some products like nuts, evidently, can run much higher, up to 50% of the cost. Will paying more make those jobs more attractive to American workers? Of course. Although I do not know where the sweet spot is. Or as you approach it if there would be a greater desire to use machines to do more of the harvesting, which some economists think we need. On preview I see that **DrDeth** has provided similar information. So what do you think now **betenoir**? Does this ratchet down you misplaced righteous indignation? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/42 "2006-03-17T16:32:46Z")
> [@Ensign Edison](#): > > Can’t address my points then? Right. As an observer, I’d like to volunteer that you’re coming off as an ass here. You provided an answer that some (me included) took to also reflect your point of view. No problem so far. When called on that, you got miffed, claiming that you were merely offerng an answer and adding (in an annoyed manner) “I knew someone would take me answering a question as me making a statement.” Then you apparently read what you posted and realized that it didn’t pass the stink test and posted and admitted that it was not just an answer, but your opinion, as well. “Let me not attempt to disavow all knowledge of this heinous crime. I agree that putting quote marks around illegal is appropriate in order to highlight the absurdity of the term.” And then you jump on **LonesomePolecat**? His final response to you was appropriate. You’re coming off as a petulant child looking for a fight. I think if you read the exchange afresh, you might agree. Anyway, YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Ensign\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/43 "2006-03-17T16:34:02Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > As an observer, I’d like to volunteer that you’re coming off as an ass here. You provided an answer that some (me included) took to also reflect your point of view. No problem so far. When called on that, you got miffed, claiming that you were merely offerng an answer and adding (in an annoyed manner) “I knew someone would take me answering a question as me making a statement.” > > Then you apparently read what you posted and realized that it didn’t pass the stink test and posted and admitted that it was not just an answer, but your opinion, as well. “Let me not attempt to disavow all knowledge of this heinous crime. I agree that putting quote marks around illegal is appropriate in order to highlight the absurdity of the term.” And then you jump on **LonesomePolecat**? > > His final response to you was appropriate. You’re coming off as a petulant child looking for a fight. I think if you read the exchange afresh, you might agree. Anyway, YMMV. So…I’m childish because I realized I made a mistake and corrected it? ---
**Author:** ![Ensign\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/44 "2006-03-17T16:38:57Z")
> [@Ensign Edison](#): > > So…I’m childish because I realized I made a mistake and corrected it? Damnit, hit post too soon. I don’t know what you mean by “when called on it”. I stand by what I said, and that it wasn’t “You can’t call people illegals”, but instead “This is why I question the use of the term illegals”. For whatshisface to respond like I personally attacked his freedom to use the term, he had to be looking for a fight. And is it childish to tell people to untwist their panties? I suppose. Yeah, I’m an ass, everybody around here knows that already, hell, if I recall correctly, you knew that already too. I’m a big ol’ meaniehead and I never give anybody a hug and I attack totally unprovoked, all he was doin’ was chuckin’ some rocks near my head. I feel his initial response to me also deserved whatever reply it got, frankly. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/45 "2006-03-17T16:40:13Z")
> [@Ensign Edison](#): > > So…I’m childish because I realized I made a mistake and corrected it? No, for that you should be commended. But that isn’t all you did. See the rest of post 28, (where you corrected yourself) and post 37. I’m not trying to pick a fight with you **EE** , I just wanted you to know how one poster was viewing the exchange. It’s been known to help someof us from time to time. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/46 "2006-03-17T16:44:51Z")
> [@Ensign Edison](#): > > I feel his initial response to me also deserved whatever reply it got, frankly. From where I sit, it appeared that your post 25 is what turned it into a fight. Again, YMMV. As I said, I was just makiing an observation. If you don’t find it helpful or disagree, naturally, feel free to ignore. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/47 "2006-03-17T16:45:39Z")
“Illegal” is an adjective. In the English language, at least, adjectives do not get pluralized. That in itself is reason enough to eschew the use of the word “illegals,” in every instance. The dehumanization factor adds extra discomfort, for me. If you want to continue using “illegal aliens,” or “illegal immigrants,” go nuts. But there are non-BHL reasons to not use “illegals.” ---
**Author:** ![Ensign\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/48 "2006-03-17T16:53:11Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > From where I sit, it appeared that your post 25 is what turned it into a fight. Again, YMMV. As I said, I was just makiing an observation. If you don’t find it helpful or disagree, naturally, feel free to ignore. You’re onto me. The only way to get me to give in is to act like a giant wet paper towel. I can’t fight with that. Are you (trying to) say that “dehumanizing” is inflammatory, is that it? You know, that honestly didn’t occur to me. It seems logical, based on the preceeding fact that people can’t be illegal. If the term is not normally applied to people, then use of it on people is dehumanizing. I didn’t mean to say that everyone who uses it thinks of immigrants as less than human, and I do apologize if I came off that way. Of course they don’t. People on both sides of the argument still use the term. But as I implied in another post, I believe that while it’s often minor, rhetoric which creeps in unseen can still do damage, and the little things add up. It’s an important point, that immigrants are human beings with every right to shelter and food and love as we have. And yes, it was entirely disingenuous of me to suggest I didn’t have an opinion, a strong one, in fact, but I honestly didn’t remember how strongly I’d stated the answer. As soon as I looked back and saw, I corrected myself, before I even noticed Lonesome’s post. But I didn’t realize it might be taken to be addressed at anyone who uses the term at any time, so if that’s the issue, I’m sorry about that. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/49 "2006-03-17T17:15:44Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Are you high? What on God’s green earth do we owe anyone who isn’t an American or a legal immigrant? Our ancestors (yours and mine) worked to build this country(I believe this argument applies to all countries across the board) in part for their descendants. That’s not a geographical accident, that hard work and planning, and you want to just throw all that away…why? Because you feel guilty that there are poor people in other countries? There is opportunity here, but if you want to take advantage of it, there are legal ways in which you can do so. If you don’t follow them, you should be deported immediately and barred from ever legally immigrating. Your argument makes no more sense that excusing a bank robber’s actions because he needed money and the bank had lots. If you want to come here, I’ll welcome you with open arms, as long as you do so legally. If you break the law and illegally immigrate, revealing yourself to be nothing more than a _thief_ of my and all other legal resident’s resources, I got no problem with dumping you back into what ever godforsaken slum you came from. You know, Juan and Pablo are the ones who are really working to build this nation. I can hear them hammering away while I sit on my ass at my cushy office job. Our ancestors sure did a lot of hard work and planning. They landed, enslaved everyone they saw, then decided that wasn’t going to work and killed everyone. Then they took over all of the land and brought in new, different slaves. We are on this land only because a hell of a lot of blood was spilled. We won this land in war, and in the course of that we all but annihilated an entire race of people. You can’t go back and change history. But please don’t get all righteous about how good and pure the founding of this nation was. As for my ancestors, mine came here to avoid gambling debts, find better bars and keep to keep the wife and kids at bay (though great grandma finally did make it to CA after great grandpa killed a guy in a barfight and needed someone to post bail). Illegal immigrants of America, I salute you! Welcome back to what was termed, when this was Mexico, California- mythical island of gold and one of the most prosperous places on earth. Through work, family and providence we will keep it that way regardless of who has filled out what paperwork. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/50 "2006-03-17T17:23:37Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > You know, Juan and Pablo are the ones who are really working to build this nation. I can hear them hammering away while I sit on my ass at my cushy office job. My emphasis. Congrats! > [@](#): > > Illegal immigrants of America, I salute you! Welcome back to what was termed, when this was Mexico, California- mythical island of gold and one of the most prosperous places on earth. Through work, family and providence we will keep it that way regardless of who has filled out what paperwork. Just to explore this thought further, do you think we should have an open border policy-- anyone can come in who wants to? If yes, what effect would that have on the country. If not, why not? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/51 "2006-03-17T17:36:48Z")
> [@Ensign Edison](#): > > Are you (trying to) say that “dehumanizing” is inflammatory, is that it? I’m sorry I got into this, but let me explain. Your post that included “dehumanizing” was post 18: > [@](#): > > A human being cannot be illegal, only their actions. So yes, their presence may be, but to call them “illegals” is dehumanizing. There is nothing wrong with it whatsoever. In fact, it makes your point succinctly, which is always a good thing. Then **LP** offered his problem with your point, as expressed in his post 22: > [@](#): > > But I’m still going to call them illegal aliens. Do you care nothing about the social, political, and economic problems that massive illegal immigration causes? Or are you only concerned about making sure that everybody uses politically correct terminology so that nobody’s feelings ever get hurt? Nothing inflamatory there, although you might construe the last line to be a dart that can often hit a nerve. Then we have your response in post 25: > [@](#): > > I knew someone would take me answering a question as me making a statement. Someone asked why a poster used quote marks around the word illegal. I answered to the best of my knowledge why the poster probably did that. Now you want to fucking fight, because you think the poster shouldn’t put quote marks around the word, maybe? Nobody showed up at your house with jackboots on, demanding your papers and warning you to choose your words more carefully in the future, so untwist your fucking panties and get out of my face. The first part, is fine, although I’d point out that you come off as neing quite annoyed. But the last part seems to come out of nowhere and is clearly and unambiguously inflamatory. I’ve already commented on the rest. If that doesn’t convey the way I perceived things and why, I don’t think I can add more. Onward. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/52 "2006-03-17T17:44:49Z")
If we should have a completely open border\* we should do it through legislation rather than adopting the haphazard approach of letting people get away with it if they’re smart or rich enough. Better yet, let’s enforce the laws. We could be doing a lot more to make sure employers and employees aren’t milking the system. Would you rather our resources go to people who obey the laws or those who have already shown they would rather not? The solution is to try to change the laws rather than turn a blind eye to them. Incidentally, I’m not against officially expanding legal immigration and naturalization to the USA, IF we also cut down on illegal immigration and guest visas. If you work here you should have a stake in our future. Yes, some people want to have that stake and we are not letting them, which we should, but we shouldn’t let corporations and unscrupulous individuals benefit at our expense. \*With only bars for security reasons with the burden of proof on the government to NOT let you in. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/53 "2006-03-17T17:45:26Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > “Illegal” is an adjective. In the English language, at least, adjectives do not get pluralized. That in itself is reason enough to eschew the use of the word “illegals,” in every instance. Don’t bring lnguistics into this. “Illegals” is a plural noun. The noun “illegal” was created from the adjective “illegal” via zero derivation, one of the most productive derivational processes that exists in the English language. Zero derivation accounts for an enormous amount of English vocabulary and there’s nothing exceptional - linguistically speaking - about the use of the term “illegal” as a noun. Which is not to say that it’s not a shitty and dehumanizing thing to do. But as **LonesomePolecat** has explained, he doesn’t give a shit. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/54 "2006-03-17T18:26:00Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > You know, Juan and Pablo are the ones who are really working to build this nation. I can hear them hammering away while I sit on my ass at my cushy office job. Sounds to me more like they’re building a house or office than a nation. > [@even sven](#): > > Our ancestors sure did a lot of hard work and planning. They landed, enslaved everyone they saw, then decided that wasn’t going to work and killed everyone. Then they took over all of the land and brought in new, different slaves. We are on this land only because a hell of a lot of blood was spilled. We won this land in war, and in the course of that we all but annihilated an entire race of people. You can’t go back and change history. But please don’t get all righteous about how good and pure the founding of this nation was. > > As for my ancestors, mine came here to avoid gambling debts, find better bars and keep to keep the wife and kids at bay (though great grandma finally did make it to CA after great grandpa killed a guy in a barfight and needed someone to post bail). Illegal immigrants of America, I salute you! Welcome back to what was termed, when this was Mexico, California- mythical island of gold and one of the most prosperous places on earth. Through work, family and providence we will keep it that way regardless of who has filled out what paperwork. As a fellow (I’m guessing at your political leanings) liberal, I have to say that’s a pretty damned simplistic version of American history you’re spouting there. In fact, you could probably say basically the same things about every culture/civilization that has ever existed on the Earth. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/55 "2006-03-17T18:37:38Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > Sounds to me more like they’re building a house or office than a nation. It’s a very small nation. ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/56 "2006-03-17T18:39:04Z")
The entire prosperity of the Human race is built on the blood of Neanderthals! So while you sit there all fucking smug and prosperous, just remember that an entire humanoid race is now extinct because of the genocidal mania of out ancestors. So just put that in your pipe and smoke it! ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/57 "2006-03-17T19:02:55Z")
> [@Binarydrone](#): > > The entire prosperity of the Human race is built on the blood of Neanderthals! So while you sit there all fucking smug and prosperous, just remember that an entire humanoid race is now extinct because of the genocidal mania of out ancestors. So just put that in your pipe and smoke it! Weren’t Neanderthals confined to Europe? So once again - it’s not the whole human race, it’s dead white men. Goddamn Europeans. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/58 "2006-03-17T19:05:01Z")
> [@Binarydrone](#): > > The entire prosperity of the Human race is built on the blood of Neanderthals! Not to mention Australopithecus and Homo Erectus! What does it take to enlighten these dumb rednecks, anyway??!? _When does the killing stop!!!_ … sorry for the outburst … it’s just that I’m so sensitive, you know, and the evils of the world weigh me down so much … look, everybody, let’s stand in a circle, hold hands and sing “If I Had a Hammer” … it would make me feel so much better … ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/59 "2006-03-17T19:08:29Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > … sorry for the outburst … it’s just that I’m so sensitive, you know, and the evils of the world weigh me down so much … look, everybody, let’s stand in a circle, hold hands and sing “If I Had a Hammer” … it would make me feel so much better … :rolleyes: Oh, Lord, I _try_ not to judge the Republicans, but they make it so damn hard . . . ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/60 "2006-03-17T19:15:52Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > :rolleyes: > Oh, Lord, I _try_ not to judge the Republicans, but they make it so damn hard . . . He thinks I’m a Republican!!! ROTFLMAO!!! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726.md?page=4)