# If yo're that opposed to illegal immigrants...... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 17, 2006, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726 "2006-03-17T12:16:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/61 "2006-03-17T19:16:06Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > :rolleyes: > Oh, Lord, I _try_ not to judge the Republicans, but they make it so damn hard . . . No fucking shit. What we need is for lesbian separatists to sing “Michael Row the boat Ashore” under the light of a new moon so that we can have healing. When will they ever get it right? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/62 "2006-03-17T19:27:19Z")
> [@stretch](#): > > They are stealing jobs from people who are here legally (native born or going through the proper channels) and they add to my tax burden without giving a whole lot back. No, they pay taxes and get few if any services in return, and aren’t payed much to boot. Assuming of course that the employer doesn’t just have them arrested as illegals when he’s done with them, so he doesn’t pay them at all. Plus they tend to end up crippled and die young due to overwork, massive exposure to pesticides and general bad working conditions. They are the ones carrying you, not the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/63 "2006-03-17T19:35:39Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > He thinks I’m a Republican!!! ROTFLMAO!!! Okay, sorry, switch “Republican” for “moron”. It’s more or less the same anyway. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/64 "2006-03-17T19:39:20Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > Okay, sorry, switch “Republican” for “moron”. It’s more or less the same anyway. Such devastating wit. Have you ever thought about writing Bazooka Joe comics? ---
**Author:** ![Ensign\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/65 "2006-03-17T19:43:37Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Such devastating wit. Have you ever thought about writing Bazooka Joe comics? Holy shit, for someone bitching about wit, you sure are pulling out jokes that have to be at least two hundred fucking years old. Jesus, where’d you dig up that relic up from, your great-grandmama’s root cellar? ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/66 "2006-03-17T20:02:42Z")
Here’s an article from the NY Times that suggests cheap labour has hurt American farms more than it has helped by retarding technological developments. [http://www.mindfully.org/Farm/2004/Cheap-Labor-Machines22mar04.htm](http://www.mindfully.org/Farm/2004/Cheap-Labor-Machines22mar04.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/67 "2006-03-17T20:05:23Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > No, they pay taxes and get few if any services in return, and aren’t payed much to boot. Assuming of course that the employer doesn’t just have them arrested as illegals when he’s done with them, so he doesn’t pay them at all. Plus they tend to end up crippled and die young due to overwork, massive exposure to pesticides and general bad working conditions. > > They are the ones carrying you, not the other way around. That’s not entirely true. According to George Borjas, Harvard Economist who specilizes in labour economics (and an immigrant himself) (and picked up by the Economist), notes that illiegal immigrants actually consume more in benefits, health care costs etc. than they actually contribute to the economy. [http://ksgfaculty.harvard.edu/George\_Borjas](http://ksgfaculty.harvard.edu/George_Borjas) ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/68 "2006-03-17T20:06:40Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Such devastating wit. Have you ever thought about writing Bazooka Joe comics? Let he who actually has some wit cast the first stone, bud. > [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > … sorry for the outburst … it’s just that I’m so sensitive, you know, and the evils of the world weigh me down so much … look, everybody, let’s stand in a circle, hold hands and sing “If I Had a Hammer” … it would make me feel so much better … Don’t get mad at me. I didn’t work your fingers and _make_ you type this. It’s not _my_ fault you’re spewing idiocy here. ---
**Author:** ![jali](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecae2f/32.png) [@jali](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jali)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/69 "2006-03-17T20:09:27Z")
I wonder why many feel that we are all discussing Spanish speaking people when we discuss illegal immigration. There are immigrants here from all over the world without valid permits to continue to live and work here. I spent my first 40 years in NYC and there are many neighborhoods/complexions/backgrounds there and many people of questionable status living and working there. My point is that the compelling reasons for the Irish, the British and any other group to come here years ago are just as compelling for any of those attempting to come here today. I don’t have an easy answer to the immigration issue. I just feel it’s ironic to celebrate a mass immigration on the same day many condemn other immigrants. The moral thing to do and the legal thing to do may not always be the same thing. Because someone may break an immigration law in order to provide for a hungry family doesn’t make them wrong in my opinion. There are laws on the books today that are regularly broken and that have become decriminilized as practice in many states in that they are never prosecuted. Cite? Interracial marriage. Perhaps some of you feel that I have a naive attitude - I read some of the posts and understand your empathy for your forefathers’ toil to build this nation. I empathise since my forefathers were African slaves whos descendants have yet to be compensated for their toil. (But that’s a whole 'nother topic) I want to fling open the gates. There’s enough land to go around - There are still wide open spaces yet to be settled in the USA. Some of the terrain may be rough, some of the land may need years of cultivation but it’s possible for a start. I’m at work and have to go to a meeting, but I’ll be back to continue. ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/70 "2006-03-17T20:11:48Z")
I have no problem with seasonal workers coming up by the thousands, as long as they register. If such a program is in place if not create one. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/71 "2006-03-17T20:52:35Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > That’s not entirely true. According to George Borjas, Harvard Economist who specilizes in labour economics (and an immigrant himself) (and picked up by the Economist), notes that illiegal immigrants actually consume more in benefits, health care costs etc. than they actually contribute to the economy. > > [Harvard Kennedy School | Harvard Kennedy School](http://ksgfaculty.harvard.edu/George_Borjas) Goddamn it! Stop bringing facts to the discussion! Der Trihs is going to lead us in a round of Kumbaya now. Shhhhh! ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/72 "2006-03-17T20:57:53Z")
And before people start jumping down my throat for being anti-immigrant (which is an absurd accusation considering I married an immigrant), remember what I said in my first post to this thread: > [@me](#): > > There is opportunity here, but if you want to take advantage of it, there are legal ways in which you can do so. \ If you want to come here, I’ll welcome you with open arms, as long as you do so legally. ---
**Author:** ![lowkey\_but\_high\_locks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/59ef9b/32.png) [@lowkey\_but\_high\_locks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lowkey_but_high_locks)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/73 "2006-03-17T21:32:36Z")
Those of you bent on deportation of unvisad Mexican nationals do them be being here illegally would perfectly okay with giving back the southwest territories (such as Texas, California, and various other southwest states) taken from Mexico against it’s will, correct? ---
**Author:** ![lowkey\_but\_high\_locks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/59ef9b/32.png) [@lowkey\_but\_high\_locks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lowkey_but_high_locks)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/74 "2006-03-17T21:33:50Z")
\*do to them (no edit for typos? crap.) ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/75 "2006-03-17T21:42:16Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > And before people start jumping down my throat for being anti-immigrant (which is an absurd accusation considering I married an immigrant), remember what I said in my first post to this thread: But this isn’t true on an individual basis. Sure, there is a way for _a_ Mexican to immigrate to the US legally, but for any given Mexican there is almost no chance. Would it really provide you comfort knowing that while your kids have no school, you have no job, and there are no prospects anywhere around you…at least it is theoretically possible for you to get to the US? As for US history, yeah, almost all nations have a bloody history. But it’s absurd to go on about the noble intentions of our forfathers. They came here to make money and because it sucked in their old nation. They chose this place, as opposed to, say Luxemburg, because they saw that they could take a lot of land from people who couldn’t effectively fight back. At least the Mexican arn’t killing anyone while they undergo this age-old process. Anyway, in the grand scheme of thing, the west/soutwest was never really fully seperated from Mexcio and never will be. America won it in a war against Mexico (who actually did all the “building of nations” in this neck of the woods), which was then controled by Spain, who didn’t really have much authority to be selling it or conceding it anyway. The Mexicans didn’t all just disappear at that point. By the time we got to California we’d grown out of our “we’ll just kill everyone who used to live here and populate it with our countrymen” phase. So some Mexicans stayed, some left, some came. And so they continue. What we are seeing now is just a continuation of hundreds of years of history, and the dissipating of a dream that was held for a blink-of-the-eye (1930-1980, lets say) of California being possible to settle in the same manner as we settled, day, Utah- that by now it’d be full of blonde girls in pigtails and strapping young white men. The truth is comes out that CA really is a border, a hybrid zone, an extension of both America and Mexico that can’t be seen as discreet from either one. And by god we are better off for it. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/76 "2006-03-17T21:48:15Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > That’s not entirely true. According to George Borjas, Harvard Economist who specilizes in labour economics (and an immigrant himself) (and picked up by the Economist), notes that illiegal immigrants actually consume more in benefits, health care costs etc. than they actually contribute to the economy. > > [http://ksgfaculty.harvard.edu/George\_Borjas](http://ksgfaculty.harvard.edu/George_Borjas) Well, that is certainly true- what’s more just about everyone in the USA earning less that the top 10% gets more in benefits than they pay in taxes. Assuming you consider the US Military, roads, & public Education “benefits”. **lowkey but high locks** , well, not quite “against their will”. The USA did pay for the territory (admittly at the point of a gun for most of it), and in some cases, the Mexican government didn’t value the territory all that highly (California for example). Of course, if we’re giving land back- the Spanish would have needed to give all Mexico back to the Aztec, and the Aztec to the native populations _they_ displaced, and so forth. As far as "land grabs’ go, USA getting terriroty from Mexico was fairly civilized. **jali** - the Interracial marriage laws aren’t such a good example here, as they have been off those books for a while now. \*“There are laws on the books today that are regularly broken and that have become decriminilized as practice in many states in that they are never prosecuted. Cite? Interracial marriage.” \* The Sodomy laws might be a better example, although the recent SCOTUS dec has made most of them rather doubtful also. ---
**Author:** ![lowkey\_but\_high\_locks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/59ef9b/32.png) [@lowkey\_but\_high\_locks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lowkey_but_high_locks)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/77 "2006-03-17T22:27:10Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > **lowkey but high locks** , well, not quite “against their will”. The USA did pay for the territory (admittly at the point of a gun for most of it), and in some cases, the Mexican government didn’t value the territory all that highly (California for example). Of course, if we’re giving land back- the Spanish would have needed to give all Mexico back to the Aztec, and the Aztec to the native populations _they_ displaced, and so forth. As far as "land grabs’ go, USA getting terriroty from Mexico was fairly civilized. True, just making the point that the land wasn’t endued with star spangled dirt since creation. ---
**Author:** ![DiggitCamara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@DiggitCamara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiggitCamara)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2006, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/78 "2006-03-18T00:37:03Z")
Full disclosure: I’m a mexican, currently living in Mexico City, with no intentions to migrate to the U.S. As such, I probably shouldn’t say anything about the whole problem. Having said that, I’m still going to forward a few points: The whole situation reminds me of a natural phenomenon called [osmosis](http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/cmb/cells/pmemb/osmosis.html) . If two water mixtures with different concentrations lie together, separated by a selectively permeable membrane, they’ll tend to pass through the membrane until both substances have the same concentration. In our case, of course, that might be oversimplifying the situation, however the two mixtures could be called societies and the concentration would be the wealth of both countries. Usually this “human osmosis” manifests itself by a flood of unskilled laborers who enter the wealthier country and start working at menial jobs. This problem is quite old. And it’s not unique. Germany has had it several times (immigration from Turkey, Italy and, currently, Eastern Europe, Poland in particular), France had it (immigration from Algiere and other colonies), England has had it (immigration from Pakistan, India, etc.), even the U.S. has troubled itself with several iterations of the phenomenon (Irish, Italians, Dutch, etc.) I don’t think it really can be stopped by propagandistic or jingoistic efforts. Most people who cross the border illegally do it even though they risk their lives. Do you honestly think deportation will deter them?. However, there might be some measures the governments could take to ease the process. Facilitating **legal** entry would be one of them. And, if you give some incentive to return to the homeland ( **not** only Mexico… most of the illegal immigration from the south is only crossing Mexico to get to the U.S.) that would help lower the cost as well. Incrementing the price of cheap labor to companies who currently employ illegal immigrants might also help. Helping Mexico’s development with directed investments also might help in the long run. After all, who wants to leave your home, travel hundreds of miles across deserts and be paid the same you’d get at home? But, as usual, politicians only deal with symptoms. They seldom address the underlying sickness. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2006, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/79 "2006-03-18T00:38:00Z")
Sven, if they want a standard of living that is not available in their home countries, and chose not to follow the process of emigrating legally to the U.S., then they can work to change their home countries, or they can sit and cry in their beer for all I care. Neither that nor any of your bleeding heard historical revisionism (“by God we are better off for it!”?? You’re fucking deluded)will change the fact that by coming here illegally they are breaking the law, and stealing from the legal residents of the U.S… And yes, I think every one of them should be dumped back in their home countries and forever barred from legal immigration. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2006, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/80 "2006-03-18T00:47:56Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > And by god we are better off for it. Who do you mean by “we”? The U.S.? Or California? And whichever one you meant: why do you think that to be the case? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726.md?page=5)