# If yo're that opposed to illegal immigrants...... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 17, 2006, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726 "2006-03-17T12:16:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/121 "2006-03-19T05:30:56Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > State with highest GDP ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_U.S](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S)._states\_by\_GDP_%28nominal%29) > > California > New York > Texas > Florida > Illinois > Pennsylvania > Ohio > New Jersey > Michigan > Georgia > > The bottom states of both are mirrored at about the same rates. Of course, this doesn’t prove anything- the larger states are going to get the most of both. But it’s still a pretty uncanny little list. You do understand that this tracks almost precisely with population, right? ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/122 "2006-03-19T05:35:29Z")
> [@Updike](#): > > I don’t disagree with you, the inevitable “they pay property taxes because the landlord includes it as part of rent” argument is just b.s., and I 'm glad you pointed it out. > > Apple probably doesn’t use increased property taxes as a _reason_ to raise prices, but property taxes remain a part of Apple’s costs, which in turn affects their pricing. Actually, they pay property taxes as part of their rent. If I buy an iPod, I’ve bought it for whatever Steve Jobs will sel it for. Of course he’s taken his expenses into account. A relationship with a landlord is a whole 'nother animal, though. I insist that renters pay property taxers only because I had a landlord come to me when my rent was late and say, "I need to pay my property taxes. PLease give me the rent. " When Steve Jobs does the same thing, I’ll say buyers of iPods pay property taxes. ---
**Author:** ![Updike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@Updike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Updike)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/123 "2006-03-19T05:43:02Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > Actually, they pay property taxes as part of their rent. If I buy an iPod, I’ve bought it for whatever Steve Jobs will sel it for. Of course he’s taken his expenses into account. > > A relationship with a landlord is a whole 'nother animal, though. I insist that renters pay property taxers only because I had a landlord come to me when my rent was late and say, "I need to pay my property taxes. PLease give me the rent. " When Steve Jobs does the same thing, I’ll say buyers of iPods pay property taxes. Nonsense. “Rent” is just the price of living in an apartment for a period of time. You’re not paying property taxes. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/124 "2006-03-19T06:45:35Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > Citation please? For example, who is Barry Chiswick? He’s an economist specializing in immigration issues. > [@](#): > > Has Chiswick actually refuted Borjas’ findings with data and research of his own? They’re economists, for Christ’s sake. Of course they refute each other all of the time. They also sometimes agree with each other. Not that that has any bearing on anything, since I never made any such claims. I simply claimed that Chiswick ridiculed Borjas with the above quoted line. He did. > [@](#): > > That is, in essence, his overall conclusion. Given your self-stated knowledge and expertise with his work I am astonished that you can’t find it. You still haven’t found it. I’m now pretty certain that I’m more familiar with Borjas’s work than you are, and I’m STILL waiting for that cite. I get the feeling that you paraphrased a paraphrase of Borjas by some xenophobe blogger. Borjas has issues with immigration in general, and usually tries to wrap illegal and legal immigration together in his “studies”, or completely ignore the differences between the two, as he knows full well that attempting to quantify anything about illegal immigrants is a pretty tough sell. Hell, we don’t even know how many there are with any certainty. Most estimates differ from each other by millions, and I’ve seen the number range from 7 to 28 million, depending on who you ask. Your claim was stricly about illegal immigrants, and as stated a few sentences back, I STILL haven’t gotten the cite I keep asking for. Are you going to demonstrate that he said what you claim he did, or am I expected to prove he never said it? ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/125 "2006-03-19T06:48:51Z")
> [@Updike](#): > > Nonsense. “Rent” is just the price of living in an apartment for a period of time. You’re not paying property taxes. You’re enabling your landlord to pay his property taxes. HIs property taxes are higher because he’s able to get some of that money from you. Again, I had a landlord who was upfront about this relationship. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/126 "2006-03-19T08:51:22Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > He’s an economist specializing in immigration issues. > They’re economists, for Christ’s sake. Of course they refute each other all of the time. They also sometimes agree with each other. Not that that has any bearing on anything, since I never made any such claims. I simply claimed that Chiswick ridiculed Borjas with the above quoted line. He did. Why not provide a specific cite. That is, a citation where he refutes Borjas based on ascertainable evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/127 "2006-03-19T08:53:45Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > Oh yeah? How so? What was questionable about it? Modern Mexico is a Spanish creation and said creation had a tenous connection to California et al. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/128 "2006-03-19T08:57:02Z")
You know if those of you who claim immigration is hurting this country really loved America, you’d volunteer to go back to whatever country your ancestors came from. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/129 "2006-03-19T08:57:07Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > Are you going to demonstrate that he said what you claim he did, or am I expected to prove he never said it? In Heaven’s Door, Borjas suggest that the net benefit of Mexican immigration to the American South West (sans aged parents and children) is roughly 10 billion. A 10 billion net return on immigration is a rather poor result of such a massive influx of people. So yes, Borjas said exactly that but for the net result of direct workers. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/130 "2006-03-19T08:59:05Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > You know if those of you who claim immigration is hurting this country really loved America, you’d volunteer to go back to whatever country your ancestors came from. Agreed if America always had an open door policy. Immigration to America has, historically, been one of peaks and valleys. That is, when it got to the point where it was overwhelming it was cut back. Currently, however, it’s been pushed by big business who want a literal endless source of cheap labour. ---
**Author:** ![lowkey\_but\_high\_locks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/59ef9b/32.png) [@lowkey\_but\_high\_locks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lowkey_but_high_locks)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/131 "2006-03-19T09:11:54Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > I’m not following your point. Mexico had, at best, a very questionable claim to much of the American territories. Indeed, I would argue that the Spanish have a strong a claim as the current nation of Mexico. How come the US invaded Mexico instead of Spain then to get those lands? And (with the Mexican government at gun point) signed Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo with Mexico over the issue? Doesn’t seem the US believed Spain owned those lands, and other then some postadhoc justification I really don’t see the logic in attributing them to Spain. > [@](#): > > So China has no economic problems? Or India? Or Nigeria? It doesn’t work that way. > > More (low to no skilled people) = wage deflation = income disparity = more poverty = more social and political instability. > > Using your logic, Mexico should be an economic powerhouse. You are aware of the difference between such things as capitalism, and communism correct? I suppose I should have specified countries similar to the US in government and market composition, but eh don’t wanna have to draw a map. Actually China, since they started shifting from communism, and India’s standard of living is increasing. Mexico has additional problems. Anyone in Mexico who wants to live in the US pretty much can, legally or no, including many in the area I live in, and one can still find decent jobs. Other then Xenophobia I don’t see what the issue is. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/132 "2006-03-19T13:45:51Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > Modern Mexico is a Spanish creation and said creation had a tenous connection to California et al. Oh come now. You need to provide some facts if you are going to make such absurd claims. The borders were legally defined. The only thing tenous was the US respect for international law. Something that apparently continues to this day. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/133 "2006-03-19T18:31:59Z")
> [@lowkey but high locks](#): > > You do realise immigrants are going to need things clothes and such, and making items for them will increase demand which will increase jobs. But those jobs won’t be in America, as by & large, very little clothing is made in the USA. And the little there is- is not being bought by the dudes in the lower income brackets **DMC** \* "Once again, you state that he notes: "illegal immigrants actually consume more in benefits, health care costs etc. than they actually contribute to the economy.“That’s what I want a cite for, nothing else”\* Do you really want this cite or are you just busting Lochdale’s chops? Becuase anyone with even a slight nodding aquantance with Economics knows that the entirety of the lower income population consume more in benefits, health care costs etc than they actually contribute to the economy (They have to- it’s simple math). And, “Illegals” are almost always in that lower income group. **even sven** _"Americans are happy to whine and bitch about their jobs going overseas. But few have the guts to do what their own ancestors did- pack up, say their goodbyes, and head out to greener pastures._" What the fuck are you taling about? _What_ “greener pastures”? The jobs aren’t going to where the _pastures are greener_, I hope you know. An American who is skiled at Computer Customer Service would take a HUGE pay hit by moving to India and working there in a Customer Service call centre. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/134 "2006-03-19T18:32:47Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > In Heaven’s Door, Borjas suggest that the net benefit of Mexican immigration to the American South West (sans aged parents and children) is roughly 10 billion. > A 10 billion net return on immigration is a rather poor result of such a massive influx of people. So yes, Borjas said exactly that but for the net result of direct workers. This paraphrase and the one I asked for a cite for aren’t even in the same hemisphere, much less ballpark. How do you go from a professor noting that specifically Mexican immigrants (with aboslutely no reference to their **legal status** ), llimited to a specific geographci area of the country, have a **net benefit** (notice that says net?), and somehow turn that into **illegal** immigrants **consume more** in benefits, health care costs, etc., that they actually **contribute** to the econmy? Those are closer to being opposite positions than identical ones. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/135 "2006-03-19T19:04:34Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > An American who is skiled at Computer Customer Service would take a HUGE pay hit by moving to India and working there in a Customer Service call centre. That would be news to my uncle, who actually did just that. He’s enjoyed an enormous jump in his standard of living and now has a large three-bedroom apartment in a gated community outside of Delhi, an on-call driver, a housekeeper that comes in several times a week and all of the perks of being a member of the Indian middle class. Yeah, it’s a huge pay hit, but considering that a good meal at a top restaurant there may cost six dollars if you live it up, it’s can often work in your favor. I’ve actually _been_ to an Indian call center, and the people working there are healthy, happy, supporting their families (even in one wage earner households) and enjoying life on their $400 a month. ---
**Author:** ![lowkey\_but\_high\_locks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/59ef9b/32.png) [@lowkey\_but\_high\_locks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lowkey_but_high_locks)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/136 "2006-03-19T19:42:16Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > But those jobs won’t be in America, as by & large, very little clothing is made in the USA. And the little there is- is not being bought by the dudes in the lower income brackets. Man can not live by cotton alone. 😉 They’re going to need and want things like food, cars, clothes, books, watches, food, tvs, computers, many things, and they’ll work they way up until they can afford them. ---
**Author:** ![Updike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@Updike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Updike)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/137 "2006-03-19T23:29:19Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > You’re enabling your landlord to pay his property taxes. HIs property taxes are higher because he’s able to get some of that money from you. Again, I had a landlord who was upfront about this relationship. And buying an iPod enables Apple to pay their property taxes, so what? And how do you figure that “His property taxes are higher because he’s able to get some money from you”? Cite, please. Sorry for the hijack, folks. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2006, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/138 "2006-03-20T01:47:40Z")
> [@Updike](#): > > And how do you figure that “His property taxes are higher because he’s able to get some money from you”? Cite, please. > > Sorry for the hijack, folks. Yes. If you rent a place in a village where no one wants to live, you’ll find that your landlord doesn’t pay much in property taxes, that his rate is pretty close to the R-1 rate, and that the R-1 rate is pretty low, too. If you rent a place in a village where a lot of people want to live, you’ll find that the R-2 rates are higher. If you buy a house in taht village, you’ll find that the R-1 rates are pretty high as well. ---
**Author:** ![Updike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@Updike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Updike)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2006, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/139 "2006-03-20T04:01:41Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > Yes. If you rent a place in a village where no one wants to live, you’ll find that your landlord doesn’t pay much in property taxes, that his rate is pretty close to the R-1 rate, and that the R-1 rate is pretty low, too. If you rent a place in a village where a lot of people want to live, you’ll find that the R-2 rates are higher. If you buy a house in taht village, you’ll find that the R-1 rates are pretty high as well. Hmm. Maybe things are different in NY than here. Property tax (here) is based on the value of the property, not on the ability of your tenants to pay rent. ---
**Author:** ![lowkey\_but\_high\_locks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/59ef9b/32.png) [@lowkey\_but\_high\_locks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lowkey_but_high_locks)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2006, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726/140 "2006-03-20T07:41:42Z")
> [@Updike](#): > > Hmm. Maybe things are different in NY than here. Property tax (here) is based on the value of the property, not on the ability of your tenants to pay rent. I think it’s a supply demand kinda thing. More renters increases demand, which increase the rent you can get, which increases the worth of the property, which increases property tax. Also increases normal housing values too. Rent gets too high and people start looking to buy which increases demand. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-yore-that-opposed-to-illegal-immigrants/348726.md?page=8)