Stealing? You have an odd definition of theft. Care to back up?
Thanks! It’s a ridiculous job where I do literally no work and get fantastic amounts of money and absurd bennies (they even buy me lunch every day). And soon I’ll be leaving it all behind- to go live in a hut in Africa! I am currently in the process of joining the Peace Corps. Strange world we live in, huh?
See, immigration is a good thing. 
Aw, c’mon, Excal. Sure, the world sucks, but so do you. Try to remember that proles like me really aren’t very much impressed by your moral and intellectual pretentions, and you’ll probably get along with the commoners a lot better. But whatever you do, take that broom stick out of your ass. That’s * gotta * be painful.
Why, because it addresses your comments? Because it demonstrates the foolishness of your argument? Both?
What else would you call someone who comes across the border to get medical treatment but never pays their bill? A family who sends their children to be educated in U.S. public schools, but doesn’t contribute to the tax base supporting them? People who use public services that they are not entitled to because they are not legal or citizens? I submit that my definition of theft isn’t odd at all, but rather spot on. It’s you who doesn’t want to recognize these things for what they actually are.
Because chosing to do one thing in one specific set of circumstances does not obligate a person or country to do the same thing in a vaguely similar set of circumstances (which aren’t really very similar at all).
Was I speaking to you, beeyatch? 
Because it doesn’t address any of my comments here, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with the subject of the thread. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have little or nothing to do with the horde of illegal aliens from Latin America pouring across our borders, and only an utter ass would insist that they do. Frankly, I detect a certain brainless hostility in your comments to me which indicate that there is no need whatsoever to take you seriously, and so I will neither read nor respond to any more of your comments here or anywhere else. Fuck you. In the ass. With a cactus dildo.
A tax cheat (along with the employer)? This is a crime that ought to be punished. Are you claiming that every single illegal immigrant is doing this? That none of them pay taxes? I’d be very surprised if that is true. Failing that, they are guilty of being in the United States without authorization. This too is a crime, and the authorities should lay charges and deport, but it is not theft by any stretch of the imagination.
But once again I must say that my willingless to deport is based on the desire to strictly follow the rule of law and the lousy message the United States would be sending to people waiting to immigrate legally if we were to grant a blanket amnesty. However, I still cannot see the moral flaw in someone who crosses into the country illegally while searching for a better life, and cannot justify any of the hostility I see towards these people.
The “oh, just improve your homeland” idea sounds great when one is proposing it sitting in a comfy chair in the United States. Since this is apparently something that is pretty easy to do I would propose that the person suggesting it find a similarily skilled Mexican, swap places with them in Mexico so as to not have any net effect on the labor / tax bases in either country, and whip up the change by themselves.
You know they could contribute to the tax base if they didn’t have to work under the table.
Please don’t pin things on me based on a post or too, it just makes you look like a :wally
One of the bigger problems is that the Mexican government actually encourages immigration as it is both an economic and political safety valve. That is, by pushing their pesantry north they don’t have to deal with the social and economic problems endemic in Mexican society.
Further, it is nonsense to suggest that California et al. were Mexican provinces. If anything, modern Mexico was a Spanish development and the Indian-Mexicans had their land stolen.
For example, American settlement in Texas started in 1821. A look at the Texas State Historical Association’s Handbook of Texas (Here) shows that in 1744, the non-Indian population of Texas was estimated at 1,500, mostly missionaries and soldiers around San Antonio and La Bahía. By 1821, when Stephen F. Austin founded the first American colony along the Brazos and Colorado Rivers, the population was approximately 7,000. Taken from that website:
Best estimates for 1836, the year of Texas independence:
30,000 Anglo-American
14,200 Indians
5,000 blacks (most of them Texians’ slaves)
3,470 Hispanic Tejanos
Who stole what exactly?
Actually they would not. The problem is that they are being constantly undercut by fellow immigrants who enter the country and work for even less wages than immigrants 10 years ago. With such an endless supply of labour they will never be able to meaningfully contribute to the exchequer as tax payers.
Would you be willing to give up Montana if a larger population of Mexican nationals lived there?
After all America just stole it from the Native Americans.
Legalize and regulate. They don’t have to work under the table, you’ll be able to do things like set enforce a minimum wage. That should put them on the same page as nationalized americans.
As someone said before they usually get paid the same as other people anyway for plausable deniability.
Late back to the thread, and other have replied to you Der Trihs, but, as usual, you don’t know what you are talking about.
Few services? Children are allowed to go to Washington schools regardless of their immigration status; because Washington state does not discriminate against children, illegal aliens that have kids are allowed to get public assistance including monetary grants, food stamps, and medical insurance for those kids. Frequently, that allows a better standard of living than they would have in the home country.
Illegals do pay some taxes in Washington–they pay sales tax on non-food items and property tax (generally via rent though I’m sure some own homes as well). Washington doesn’t have a state income tax, and it’s easy to avoid paying federal income taxes–nothing withheld from the pay, pay under the table, etc. Tell me–where they are contributing enough to make up for what they are can get back?
Aren’t paid much? If they work a hourly pay job for minimum wage, they make over $7 per hour (Washington has the highest minimum wage in the country). If they do piece work, they get paid for that. Granted, there are usually no benefits, but that’s true of a huge portion of the jobs in this country–my daughter doesn’t get benes at her job either and she’s a customer service rep. It’s not the pay, it’s the seasonal aspect of the job that sucks.
Employers don’t turn in their illegals at the end of work–who would pick for them next season? Plus they don’t want the fines associated with getting caught hiring illegals–better to fly under the radar and let everybody pretend it isn’t going on.
The pesticide* issue is different and is definitely a whole 'nother thread.
*I work for Washington State’s environmental agency–I’d wager I know a little more about what’s going on with pesticide exposure and the ways we are trying to protect people than you do on this as well, but I’m not debating it here.
Yes, let’s look at how enriching and beneficial mass immigration was to the American Indian…
Because we are so good at enforcing immigration laws now or the minimum wage now? If you have an endless supply of labour it simply will never work. Curb or simply halt mass immigration and then you might have a chance at enforcing minimum wage. As it stands now, it just won’t happen (and isn’t happening) and it is naive to think otherwise.
If he did that, he’d join them in jail. Don’t you read before posting? Employers can’t take the risk of paying Illegals less than legal braceros. If he pays them all the same, and the INS raid him- all he has to do is point to his copies of the fake ID they game him and say “well, I thought they were legal” and thus no penalties. But if he was caught paying the Illegals at a different rate than the legals, he’d get fined or worse. Thus, other than a few iloslated and very rare instances of illegals being kept nearly as slaves, Illegals are paid the same as legal braceros- they *have *to be to give the Employer “plausible deniabilty” as someone else worded it. Which is actually a nice amount- except for the fact it’s realy, really tough work.
All low income dudes/families pay less in taxes than they get benefits- braceros & Illegals included.
My family came off the boats - both sides (of the family, not the boat). Irish immigants looking for food and a better way of life. Ellis Island and all. America was bigger then. Full of expansive spaces. “Go West, young man!” and all. That’s not the case now. We’re full - that’s why we have immigration quotas, now.
We have a decaying system to take care of the legal citizens in this country, and then some border hopper stands around in the packs in San Rafael and I’m expected to use my tax dollars to pay for their emergency care, or welfare assistance or something? Sorry. Not going for it. They don’t pay INTO the system, they don’t become PART of the system, but they want the benefits OF the system. It’s already broken. This just assures the demise.
From one Mick who never thought she’d feel that way.
Inky
Cite? Your link says no such thing. (Being aware of who Borjas is, I wouldn’t be terribly surprised, but it’s really hard to debate without actual specifics. I usually take his studies on immigration with the same grain of salt I’d take with a study by Soros on Republicans.)
A link to an economist’s profile is a fact? I guess it proves that he has a job, but otherwise, it brings nothing to the discussion.