# If you are a male who thinks rape is about sex, not power **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 9, 2009, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-a-male-who-thinks-rape-is-about-sex-not-power/513212 "2009-10-09T17:51:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-a-male-who-thinks-rape-is-about-sex-not-power/513212/341 "2009-10-21T03:33:12Z")
For a lot of men, sex itself is about power. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-a-male-who-thinks-rape-is-about-sex-not-power/513212/342 "2009-10-21T11:40:46Z")
> [@](#): > > Did you deliberately choose not to quote an important section of my post in an attempt to make it look like I was contradicting myself (not that “many” would be a big about-face from “most”), or did you just not bother to read the whole thing? I didn’t understand your position on my first read, or on my second; I’ve now given it a third try, and it’s still not coming together quite right. I’m not trying to show a contradiction; I’m simply trying to understand which of the three is your position, and if I’m missing it because of something I’m not quoting it’s because I honestly don’t see the section that would clear this up: 1. _I don’t believe that, when it comes to rape, assault is merely a means to an end._ Do you actually believe that? That it’s _ **never** _ merely a means to an end? 1. _Based on my reading, it seems clear that most rapists enjoy both the sexual aspect of rape AND the violent or coercive aspect._ Does that mean some rapists – but not the majority – _ **don’t?** _ 1. _"For many rapists I don’t think it’s possible to separate “sex” from “violence/coercion” as a motive_ Does that mean we can for some rapists – possibly the majority? I’m not trying to play “gotcha”. I honestly want to know which point you’re making: that all, or most, or some rapists aren’t just in it for the sex. If you’d stopped right when you’d said it’s not a means to an end, I’d have disputed that; if you’d only said “most”, I’d have disputed _ **that;** _ and if you’d only said “many”, I’d have disputed _ **that.** _ But I honestly don’t know which claim you’re making. > [@](#): > > (not that “many” would be a big about-face from “most”) Sure it is. Under one phrasing, you’re flatly wrong if 51% of the rapists are only after sex and don’t care one way or the other about the other person; under the other, you can still arguably salvage your claim even if it hits 60% or 65% or whatever. Again, though, it’s not that I’m trying to find a big about-face; at the risk of Godwinizing the thread, just imagine some bigot who first claims that _ **every** _ Olympic gold medal will go to an Aryan and later says that _ **most** _ gold medals will go to Aryans before saying that _ **many** _ gold medals will go to Aryans. I can knock out the first claim with facts that won’t touch the second, and I can knock out the second claim with facts that won’t touch the third – right? > [@](#): > > I have no difficulty believing that many rapists are sociopaths with poor impulse control, but I do not find it plausible that there are rapists who do not enjoy the experience of hurting or dominating their victims. If they didn’t like it, they wouldn’t do it. Not if they don’t _ **care.** _ That’s what it means to be a “sociopath” with poor impulse control, right? > [@](#): > > I’d expect that even most sociopaths prefer willing sexual partners, just because a willing partner is at least going to try to give them a good time. I see you’re dropping the “with poor impulse control” part there. > [@](#): > > It’s certainly been my impression that most men consider masturbation a far more enjoyable way to relieve sexual tension than raping someone, but perhaps I have been misinformed. Ah, the magic word “most”. How is that relevant, here? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-a-male-who-thinks-rape-is-about-sex-not-power/513212/343 "2009-10-21T15:26:58Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I didn’t understand your position on my first read, or on my second; I’ve now given it a third try, and it’s still not coming together quite right. I’m not trying to show a contradiction; I’m simply trying to understand which of the three is your position, and if I’m missing it because of something I’m not quoting it’s because I honestly don’t see the section that would clear this up: > > 1. _I don’t believe that, when it comes to rape, assault is merely a means to an end._ > > Do you actually believe that? That it’s _ **never** _ merely a means to an end? I do not believe that there are rapists who do not in any way enjoy hurting, dominating, or controlling their victims. If they didn’t, they wouldn’t rape. > [@](#): > > \*2) _Based on my reading, it seems clear that most rapists enjoy both the sexual aspect of rape AND the violent or coercive aspect._ > > Does that mean some rapists – but not the majority – _ **don’t?** _ \*I believe it’s possible that there are some rapists who enjoy only the violent or coercive aspect of rape and do not get any sexual thrill out of it at all. I don’t _know_ this to be true, but since it is a fact that some rapists are unable to maintain an erection during rape or do not ejaculate, and that some sexual assaults involve penetrating the victim’s vagina or anus with an object rather than the assailant’s penis or other body part, it strikes me as possible that some rapists simply consider rape the most effective way of hurting or intimidating their victims. > [@](#): > > \*3) _"For many rapists I don’t think it’s possible to separate “sex” from “violence/coercion” as a motive_ > > Does that mean we can for some rapists – possibly the majority? \*In the section of my post that you have chosen once again to ignore, I specifically described a type of rapist for whom “sex” and “violence” are seperate motivations. > [@](#): > > \*I’m not trying to play “gotcha”. \*Yes, you are. I’m through playing along, though. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-a-male-who-thinks-rape-is-about-sex-not-power/513212/344 "2009-10-21T17:08:03Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > I do not believe that there are rapists who do not in any way enjoy hurting, dominating, or controlling their victims. If they didn’t, they wouldn’t rape. So you’re simply ruling out the possibility that _ **any** _ rapist, anywhere, ever, is merely concerned with getting their rocks off and doesn’t care one way or the other whether the other person is into it – or is of age, or is too drunk to give meaningful consent, or whatever. I’m sorry to hear that you’re “through playing along”, because what you’ve just spelled out calls for a whole thread. What purpose is served by painting _ **all** _ of them with the same broad brush? Some people really do only get turned on by hurting their victims; how does it _ **help** _ to lump those guys in with a date rapist who was enjoying himself just fine so long as they were both into it, and didn’t _ **stop** _ when she said no? Sure, some people are sadists; can’t others be _ **indifferent?** _ Your mistake would have us looking in the wrong place by applying a one-size-fits-all pathology to a wide spectrum of varying motivations. ---
**Author:** ![Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8491ac/32.png) [@Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fake_Tales_of_San_Francisco)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-a-male-who-thinks-rape-is-about-sex-not-power/513212/345 "2009-10-21T18:20:31Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > I do not believe that there are rapists who do not in any way enjoy hurting, dominating, or controlling their victims. If they didn’t, they wouldn’t rape. Does it have to be all three at the same time that they enjoy in particular? Why would plenty (according to the statistics) of people who feel the need to rape go to lengths to minimise the actual conflict aspect (through getting the victim doped up, drunk etc), so they didn’t have to hurt their victims? Is it not plausible that some people who rape just want to delude themselves? They want to feel close to someone through sex, and don’t know how to make that happen through normal social interactions. Blow up dolls don’t feel real enough I guess? Some might think if they _just_ had sex with them, they’d feel the same way, there’d be some sort of connection. Why do you have to limit rape motive and desire. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-a-male-who-thinks-rape-is-about-sex-not-power/513212/346 "2009-10-21T21:55:06Z")
> [@](#): > > Why would plenty (according to the statistics) of people who feel the need to rape go to lengths to minimise the actual conflict aspect (through getting the victim doped up, drunk etc), so they didn’t have to hurt their victims? I don’t think that these rapists drug their victims in order to avoid hurting them. I think that most, if not all, rapists who drug their victims do so in order to minimize resistance. ---
**Author:** ![Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8491ac/32.png) [@Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fake_Tales_of_San_Francisco)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-a-male-who-thinks-rape-is-about-sex-not-power/513212/347 "2009-10-21T23:04:19Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > I don’t think that these rapists drug their victims in order to avoid hurting them. I think that most, if not all, rapists who drug their victims do so in order to minimize resistance. Yes, I’m not implying it’s done out of the kindness of the hearts. I’m saying that having a struggle, ‘showing the woman who’s boss’, isn’t necessarily the most important thing on their mind (Since they’ve explicitly avoided that). Many rape victims can’t identify the person that assaulted them because they were unconscious at the time. When I read of situations like that, I don’t immediately think they must be on a power trip. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-a-male-who-thinks-rape-is-about-sex-not-power/513212/348 "2009-10-21T23:11:24Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > I do not believe that there are rapists who do not in any way enjoy hurting, dominating, or controlling their victims. If they didn’t, they wouldn’t rape. This might be a reach but what about child molesters–the ones who do molest, but don’t actually commit rape? I’ve read that a lot of them don’t rape because they do care about the child and don’t want to hurt it. They obviously still are, in other ways, bu would that be an example? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-a-male-who-thinks-rape-is-about-sex-not-power/513212/349 "2009-10-22T05:29:14Z")
> [@Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](#): > > Does it have to be all three at the same time that they enjoy in particular? No. Do you not understand what the word “or” means? It’s really quite different from “and”. > [@](#): > > \*Why would plenty (according to the statistics) of people who feel the need to rape go to lengths to minimise the actual conflict aspect (through getting the victim doped up, drunk etc), so they didn’t have to hurt their victims? \*An obvious reason for drugging one’s victims would be to minimize the rapist’s personal risk. It’s also an effective way to gain control over another person’s body. > [@Robertiello and Terry](#): > > Overall, the most common type of rapist is one who is motivated by power and control. This is particularly true in cases of marital and acquaintance rapes (Finkelhor, 1984) as well as cases where “date-rape” drugs are used (Struman, 2000). Though Struman (2000) points out that drug rapes can be either planned or opportunistic, he states that in either situation the offender produces a situation in which he is in control of the victim. It’s interesting that you think people who have been drugged and raped haven’t been “hurt”, though. > [@](#): > > \*Is it not plausible that some people who rape just want to delude themselves? They want to feel close to someone through sex, and don’t know how to make that happen through normal social interactions. Blow up dolls don’t feel real enough I guess? Some might think if they _just_ had sex with them, they’d feel the same way, there’d be some sort of connection. \*In other words, they want to control their victims. You’ve given a perfect description of a Groth “power-reassurance rapist”. > [@](#): > > \*Why do you have to limit rape motive and desire. \*Because I do not belong to the “Anything I can imagine must be true!” school of research. If you would like to cite some peer-reviewed scholarly journal articles that support your position that some rapists _don’t_ in any way enjoy hurting, dominating, or controlling their victims then I would be happy to take a look at them, but your speculation on the subject is of no interest to me. Since I am not an expert in the field of sex crimes then I do not expect _my_ opinions on the matter to be of any special interest to you either. I would not have offered a statement of my beliefs in this thread had I not been asked to do so. But at least my opinions are based on serious reading on the subject. I’d have provided cites if anyone had asked for them. I like citing things. In fact, I like citing things so much that I’ll give you a partial bibliography of articles about rape and rapists: Pardue, A., Arrigo, B.A. Power, anger, and sadistic rapists: Toward a differentiated model of offender personality (2008) International Journal of Offender Therapy and Comparative Criminology Volume 52, Issue 4, pp. 378-400 Robertiello, G., Terry, K.J. Can we profile sex offenders? A review of sex offender typologies (2007) Aggression and Violent Behavior, 12 (5), pp. 508-518. Richards, H.J., Washburn, J.J., Craig, R., Taheri, A., Yanisch, D. Typing rape offenders from their offense narratives (2004) Individual Differences Research, 2 (2), pp. 97-108. McCabe, M.P., Wauchope, M. Behavioral Characteristics of Men Accused of Rape: Evidence for Different Types of Rapists (2003) Archives of Sexual Behavior 34 (2), pp. 241-253 Canter, D.V., Bennell, C., Alison, L.J., Reddy, S. Differentiating sex offences: A behaviorally based thematic classification of stranger rapes (2003) Behavioral Sciences and the Law 21 (2), pp. 157-174 Hazelwood, R.R., Warren, J.I. The sexually violent offender: Impulsive or ritualistic? (2000) Aggression and Violent Behavior, 5 (3), pp. 267-279. Hunter, J.A., Hazelwood, R.R., Slesinger, D. Juvenile-perpetrated sex crimes: Patterns of offending and predictors of violence (2000) Journal of Family Violence, 15 (1), pp. 81-93. Malamuth, N.M. The attraction to sexual aggression scale (1989) The Journal of Sex Research, Vol. 26, No. 1, pp. 26-49 Scully, D., Marolla, J. Convicted Rapists’ Vocabulary of Motive: Excuses and Justifications (1984) Social Problems, Vol. 31, No. 5, pp. 530-544 Groth, A.N., Burgess, A.W., Holmstrom, L.L. Rape: Power, anger, and sexuality (1977) American Journal of Psychiatry, 134 (11), pp. 1239-1243. The various authors of these articles are not all in agreement with one another on the subject of motives for rape. For instance, some authors hold that sexual desire is never the primary motive for rape, while others believe that it is the primary motive in some cases. But not one of them, nor any other study on the subject that I have ever seen or heard of, asserts that there are rapists who are just very, very horny and do not possess any desire to hurt, dominate, or control their victims. Given the apparent dearth of scholarly work in support of this idea, I’m forced to conclude that it is, at best, a minority position. If you have evidence to the contrary, I again invite you to share it. But somehow I don’t think you do. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-a-male-who-thinks-rape-is-about-sex-not-power/513212/350 "2009-10-22T05:30:43Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > This might be a reach but what about child molesters–the ones who do molest, but don’t actually commit rape? I’ve read that a lot of them don’t rape because they do care about the child and don’t want to hurt it. They obviously still are, in other ways, bu would that be an example? I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here. A child molestor who isn’t a rapist can’t be an example of a kind of rapist. And just to be clear, I have not been referring to child molestation in this thread. I’m not prepared to assume that child molestors are motivated by exactly the same things that motivate those who rape adults, and frankly I would prefer not to delve into the research on the subject. I do want to stress here that I did not claim that all rapists enjoy causing their victims physical pain. I’ve done my best to be clear on that point, because it’s an important one. The research indicates that there are rapists who want to dominate or control their victims but don’t actually like using physical violence. Some rapists are extremely violent and seriously injure or even kill their victims, but others prefer to make their victims submit by for instance threatening them with weapons. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-a-male-who-thinks-rape-is-about-sex-not-power/513212/351 "2009-10-22T06:47:53Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > I do not believe that there are rapists who do not in any way enjoy hurting, dominating, or controlling their victims. The tone here is somewhat different than Lamia’s stance in post 218, page 5: > [@Lamia](#): > > I’ve always understood this sentence to mean something like “Rape is not motivated solely or even primarily by a desire for sex, it is motivated primarily by a desire to exert power over another person”. > > **Since I can’t read the minds of rapists I don’t know that this interpretation is factually correct…** Emphasis added. That’s ok, I’m just saying that I’ve perceived some shifting stances on Lamia’s part, so I think calling for clarification is valid. Heck, my stance has probably shifted as well. In general, I’d say that most robbers intimidate their victims, but that they do so more out of indifference to the welfare of others, rather than actual sadism. Put another way, they see people as a means to their ends and that is all. I can’t read the minds of rapists (or robbers) either so I can’t say whether this take applies to both, but I find it plausible. Except: > [@Lamia](#): > > But not one of them, nor any other study on the subject that I have ever seen or heard of, asserts that there are rapists who are just very, very horny and do not possess any desire to hurt, dominate, or control their victims. Given the apparent dearth of scholarly work in support of this idea, I’m forced to conclude that it is, at best, a minority position. So rapists are nothing like robbers in terms of motive, as I presented it? Or is my hypothesis different from that presented by **Lamia**? Personally, I think that any explanation of rape that doesn’t account for underlying biological imperatives is intrinsically problematic. [Pinker](http://www.amazon.com/Blank-Slate-Modern-Denial-Nature/dp/0142003344) reportedly thinks rape is primarily about sex, but I doubt whether he ascribes it merely to sexual arousal per se. I haven’t read his book though. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-a-male-who-thinks-rape-is-about-sex-not-power/513212/352 "2009-10-22T14:55:34Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > The tone here is somewhat different than Lamia’s stance in post 218, page 5: Emphasis added. That’s ok, I’m just saying that I’ve perceived some shifting stances on Lamia’s part, so I think calling for clarification is valid. Heck, my stance has probably shifted as well. You are sensing a shift in tone because I am starting to get pissed off. But, unlike some people, I am capable of distinguishing between things I believe to be true and things that have actually been proven. I’m careful to make this clear in my writing. Where I say “I think” or “I believe” I do not expect what follows to be taken as an established fact. You may also note that I have not personally claimed to believe that all rapists are motivated _primarily_ by a desire to hurt, dominate, or control their victims, only that I believe such motives are always present to some degree. The reason _why_ I believe this is not because I think it’s a nice idea, but because that is what the research indicates. I would change this belief given sufficient evidence to the contrary. But “some guy said it on a message board” is not evidence. > [@](#): > > \*So rapists are nothing like robbers in terms of motive, as I presented it? \*It appears that experts in the field do not share the layman’s love of comparing rapists to thieves. I have not seen any study comparing and contrasting the motives of rapists and robbers. Have you? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-a-male-who-thinks-rape-is-about-sex-not-power/513212/353 "2009-10-23T03:48:32Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > The various authors of these articles are not all in agreement with one another on the subject of motives for rape. For instance, some authors hold that sexual desire is never the primary motive for rape, while others believe that it is the primary motive in some cases. But not one of them, nor any other study on the subject that I have ever seen or heard of, asserts that there are rapists who are just very, very horny and do not possess any desire to hurt, dominate, or control their victims. Well, you cited Hazelwood a couple of times there, and Groth as well, so I’ll cite some stuff Hazelwood wrote in reference to Groth at a start: First off, there’s the so-called power reassurance rapist – who, we’re told, _“in the author’s experience accounts for more victims than any other rapist type.”_ We’re told that such a rapist _“has no intent to punish or degrade and is the least likely to physically injure his victim … is afraid that he is going to physically hurt a victim … prefers not to force entry if the victim is home as that escalates the possibility of confrontation and physical violence, which, in turn, corrupts his fantasy of a consenting relationship … If the victim resists, this rapist is most likely to compromise or negotiate with her.”_ Hazelwood explains that, in this case, _“behavior by the rapist evidences a belief that his exhibited concern for the victim’s welfare will win her over and his hope that she will come to believe he is not a bad person. Of course this is ludicrous, but remember that we are attempting to behaviorally view the crime from the perspective of the rapist.”_ Hazelwood helpfully contrasts this with a “selfish rapist” for whom _“the victim’s fear, comfort, reluctance, or feelings are of no significance … whether or not he physically injures a victim is of no consequence to him; she is merely an object to be used for his gratification”_. That’s explicitly _ **not** _ the case for the so-called power reassurance rapist; indeed, as Hazelwood puts it, _“the first objective is to determine whether the rapist intended the assault to be selfish or unselfish in nature. To categorize a rapist as unselfish may seem contrary to everything the reader knows or believes about sexual assault…”_ . . . but rest assured, Hazelwood has a point to make, and it’s a whopper. _“For this rapist, it is important that the victim enjoy (or pretend to enjoy) the activity, as this feeds his need for acceptance and power and fulfills his fantasy of the victim’s willing participation … While no one would deny that he degrades and emotionally traumatizes his victims, it is important to understand that he has no conscious intent to do so.”_ Absolutely brilliant: since the fantasy is of consent, there’s no conscious intent to punish or degrade or harm – and so we’re to _ **postulate** _ some need for power that’s fed whenever he “fulfills his fantasy of the victim’s willing participation”. We’re told the rapist intended the assault to be “unselfish in nature”, sure as Hazelwood promptly lists a number of traits: _“No intent to physically harm … Does not consider the rape as harm … Did not verbally abuse her or use vulgar language … Did not physically abuse her … Normal sex … He even involved her in the type of sex she likes, just wanted to make her happy … Desires to please her … Fantasizes as consenting contact”_ – and so we’re to _ **assume** _ that, _“As a rapist, he seeks power over a female and fulfills a need to have a sexual relationship with a woman.”_ That’s junk science. That’s, like, the _ **definition** _ of junk science. Could _ **any** _ hypothetical example falsify the claims about power? But, leaving that aside for the moment, it looks like Hazelwood will cheerfully grant that no desire to hurt or dominate or control is evident in the rapist’s intent or beliefs, which all track with fulfilling his fantasy of willing participation and consenting contact in a sexual relationship; Hazelwood merely adds that such a rapist _ **must** _ have some power-seeking need way down in there along with his need for acceptance, but it can of course be a power-seeking need that involves no intent to harm amidst a fantasy of consent. I find that conclusion laughable, but, well, there it is. > **[Practical Aspects of Rape Investigation](https://books.google.com/books?id=iV398oA5DdsC&pg=PA103&lpg=PA103&dq=Power-reassurance+rapist+groth&source=bl&ots=P1_w5jXAby&sig=RAB_iv6imYrAG2Gmza2QK5hEYZQ&hl=en&ei=ARPhSqLzLYqe8Aa9pKWxDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result)** > > U.S. Justice Department statistics indicate that only 26 percent of all rapes or attempted rapes are reported to law enforcement officials, and only slightly more than half of these result in the arrest of a suspect. Part of the problem lies in the... ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-a-male-who-thinks-rape-is-about-sex-not-power/513212/354 "2009-10-23T05:28:58Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > You are sensing a shift in tone because I am starting to get pissed off. But, unlike some people, I am capable of distinguishing between things I believe to be true and things that have actually been proven. I’m careful to make this clear in my writing. Where I say “I think” or “I believe” I do not expect what follows to be taken as an established fact. Laudable, I say. > [@](#): > > It appears that experts in the field do not share the layman’s love of comparing rapists to thieves. I have not seen any study comparing and contrasting the motives of rapists and robbers. Have you? ## IIRC, Pinker made this argument. It’s more of a conceptual illustration than an empirical comparison though. Motive can be separated from conduct during the crime. If a couple meet, get drunk and engage in intercourse that constitutes rape insofar as the woman was too drunk to give meaningful consent. So in that case, I think we have a rapist where alcohol and desire are involved, but not necessarily domination or the enjoyment of the infliction of pain. In another scenario, an ignorant man may figure that if the woman _doesn’t_ say no, then consent is implied. Not so. So desire and ignorance are another possibility. All that said, if the evidence shows that most all rapists get off on domination or the infliction of pain, that’s not exactly implausible. ETA: I just succeeded in downloading one of your cites, McCabe and Wauchope (2005). The authors are scholarly but even skimming over this human pathology is unpleasant. Ick. At any rate, I am acquiring sympathy with **Lamia** ’s characterization. That said, the “Power reassurance rapist” might be the sort of sociopathic bullshitter who doesn’t enjoy intimidation per se and might be explained within Pinker’s framework. **The Other Waldo Pepper** : Check out Theme 1 in the this !PDF!: www.hawaii.edu/hivandaids/Behavioural\_Characteristics\_of\_Rapists.pdf Hazelwood’s characterization of the power reassurance rapist actually has some support, although I’m not saying that he has the final word on this matter. I concede that the study’s methodology is subject to bias by the data gatherers. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-a-male-who-thinks-rape-is-about-sex-not-power/513212/355 "2009-10-23T11:00:18Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > **The Other Waldo Pepper** : Check out Theme 1 in the this !PDF!: www.hawaii.edu/hivandaids/Behavioural\_Characteristics\_of\_Rapists.pdf Hazelwood’s characterization of the power reassurance rapist actually has some support, although I’m not saying that he has the final word on this matter. I concede that the study’s methodology is subject to bias by the data gatherers. I can’t even be that courtly about it. I mean, okay, it’s a study of behavioral charactersitcs, and the primary example it gives for the most common theme used by offenders is _“I won’t hurt you, I just want sex.”_ It goes on to point out that the _“Brutal/Physical”_ category of assault is the least common pattern, and we’re likewise told that _“A high level of planning was also found to be a characteristic element of Knight’s (1999) classification of sexually (both sadistic and non-sadistic) motivated rapists. This proposal needs to be further explored in future studies. The most common offender communication themes found in the current studies were that of a caring/persuasion/reassurance theme in study 1 and an angry/demeaning/threatening theme in study 2. The caring/persuasion/reassurance theme included words that suggested that the offender was worried about the victim, that the offender was trying to persuade the victim to do something or words that were meant to be reassuring in nature. The angry/demeaning/threatening theme included words that were angry, aggressive, demeaning or threatening to the victim in nature…”_ …but all of that is no account; even in a study of behavior, we _ **have** _ to relay the ideology about what rapists need instead of sticking to what rapists do: _“the caring/persuasion/reassurance theme appears to be consistent with the power reassurance rapist [proposed by Douglas & Olshaker (1998) to be the most common type of rapist], because previous researchers have suggested that this type of rapist generally feels inadequate and compensates for these feelings of inadequacy by sexually assaulting women … Furthermore, it seems that this type of rapist is constantly looking for reassurance of his own power and potency, and may apologize and express concern for his victim … However, this type of behaviour serves his need for reassurance rather than expressing any genuine concern for his victim.”_ So we’ve got behavior that emphasizes a caring/persuasion/reassurance theme, along with expressions of concern – but it doesn’t _ **matter** _ that the words “suggested that the offender was worried about the victim”, or that the words really _ **were** _ “meant to be reassuring in nature”; lip service _ **must** _ be paid to the literature’s explanation of that behavior, even amidst mention of sexually motivated but non-sadistic rapists. I ask again: what evidence could, hypothetically, falsify that claim? ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-a-male-who-thinks-rape-is-about-sex-not-power/513212/356 "2009-10-23T13:17:13Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Are you speaking from the perspective of a rapist? Or are you speaking from the perspective a man who is merely speculating about the motivations of a rapist? > > Why does it seem like you think they are one in the same? The predatory/prey relationship between men and women is the starting point. To get sex from women men have to wear down their outer shell. Most men are civilized enough to use carrots for this task, but some percentage don’t mind sticks. Either way, the goal and general view is similar, even if the stick variety consist of broken human beings. Although that’s not something you’d want to say in polite company. One poster said if she didn’t think rape was about power she’d see all men as potential rapists. I would strongly recommend doing that anyway. Take normal precautions, at least! It doesn’t matter who he is. Some posters talk about how all sex is power. That works for me. I’m about to go searching for pictures of some real hot, curvy power. Mmm. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-a-male-who-thinks-rape-is-about-sex-not-power/513212/357 "2009-10-23T14:58:12Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > The predatory/prey relationship between men and women is the starting point. To get sex from women men have to wear down their outer shell. Most men are civilized enough to use carrots for this task, but some percentage don’t mind sticks. Either way, the goal and general view is similar, even if the stick variety consist of broken human beings. Although that’s not something you’d want to say in polite company. > > One poster said if she didn’t think rape was about power she’d see all men as potential rapists. I would strongly recommend doing that anyway. Take normal precautions, at least! It doesn’t matter who he is. > > Some posters talk about how all sex is power. That works for me. I’m about to go searching for pictures of some real hot, curvy power. Mmm. That explains where I’ve gone wrong. All this time and I did not realize I was supposed to be shelling them first. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-a-male-who-thinks-rape-is-about-sex-not-power/513212/358 "2009-10-23T15:35:09Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > IIRC, Pinker made this argument. It’s more of a conceptual illustration than an empirical comparison though. Motive can be separated from conduct during the crime. I read (well, skimmed) the relevant section of _The Blank Slate_ yesterday, and Pinker did indeed make this _analogy_. But he did not cite any _research_ about the motives of robbers, the motives of rapists, or a comparison of the two. He also did not claim that sex was the _sole_ motivation for rape. He argues against the idea that sex has nothing at all to do with rape, but he doesn’t claim that no other factors are involved. I’m not sure why you keep bringing up Pinker anyway. Pinker is a very intelligent person and there are several subjects upon which he is a prominent expert, but rape isn’t one of them. I doubt he would claim otherwise himself. Pinker doesn’t work with sex offenders and he doesn’t study sex offenders. He has never published a scholarly article about rape (here’s the [list of publications](http://pinker.wjh.harvard.edu/articles/index.html) on his website, I also checked Scopus). In _The Blank Slate_ he’s mostly just summarizing the book _A Natural History of Rape_ by Randy Thornhill and Craig Palmer and discussing reactions to that book. > [@](#): > > \*All that said, if the evidence shows that most all rapists get off on domination or the infliction of pain, that’s not exactly implausible. \*It’s probably too strong to say that all rapists who want to inflict pain “get off” on it in a sexual sense – some want to hurt their victims because they’re angry, and others seem to have more a bully personality where they just think it’s fun to hurt others. Several studies I read indicated that the true sexual sadist is the least common (although perhaps the most dangerous) type of rapist, and accounts for only about 10% of all rapists. > [@](#): > > \*t succeeded in downloading one of your cites, McCabe and Wauchope (2005). The authors are scholarly but even skimming over this human pathology is unpleasant. Ick. \*You said it. I’ve read dozens of rape case studies over the past week or so, and some are downright stomach-turning. > [@](#): > > \*At any rate, I am acquiring sympathy with **Lamia** ’s characterization. That said, the “Power reassurance rapist” might be the sort of sociopathic bullshitter who doesn’t enjoy intimidation per se and might be explained within Pinker’s framework. \*The “power reassurance rapist” may be the type that creeps me out the most. I don’t think their behavior can be explained by just wanting sex, because with a power reassurance rapist (I’m just going to call them PRRs) it’s not just wham, bam, and he’s gone. The PRR is the least violent of the rapist types identified by Groth, but most other rapists aren’t playing sick games with their victims in the way that PRRs do. > [@Fossi](#): > > From the evidence of this data set, the offender [in “multiple assault” rapes] is intent on carrying out a consensual fantasy, paying little attention to the victim’s resistance strategies as he is so wrapped up in the context of his role-play. The victim in this type of assault has been subjected to a prolonged assault in which the offender was seen trying to form a relationship with the victim. The authors are here referring to rapists who don’t perform one sex act with the victim and leave (“single assault” rapes), but those who engage in multiple acts with the victim. They don’t use the term “power reassurance rapist”, but their description of multiple assault rapists fits Groth’s description of the PRR. PRR apparently do not like to use violence because this would interfere with their fantasy that they’re having consensual sex with their victims. They don’t seem to _just_ want sex but instead what prostitutes call a “girlfriend experience”. They’ll say and do things that would be normal in a consensual relationship, like asking the victim if she’s having a good time or (in one of the cases examined by Fossi, et al) even offering her a cigarette afterward. But they do this while ignoring their victims’ protests, and are willing to use threats or some degree of force to make the victim submit. From some of the PRR case studies it seems to me that even their fantasies are not about a straightforward consensual encounter, but an encounter where the victim is initially uninterested or resistant but then willingly gives in when she realizes how sexy her rapist is. Here’s Groth (1977) on one PRR: > [@](#): > > Mr. C is a 24-year-old married man who pleaded guilty to six charges of rape. In every case he approached the victim with a gun in a shopping mall. His fantasy was that the woman would say. “You don’t need a gun. You’re just what I’ve been waiting for,” and then “rape” him. He kidnapped the women, tied them up, forced them to submit to intercourse, and then questioned them as to whether he was as good as other sex partners they had had. I’m sure it’s very common for men to fantasize about women finding them irresistably sexy, but the fact that Mr. C’s fantasy specifically involved threatening women with a gun first is telling. His behavior after the rape is characteristic of a PRR. Again and again in the literature I’ve seen descriptions of PRRs asking their victims to say that the rape was the best sex they’d ever had, or that it was better than with their boyfriends/husbands. I don’t think there’s any denying that PRRs want sex, but it seems equally clear to me that they want power. These men likely feel rejected by women and inferior to other men in their ordinary lives. But a lot of men feel that way and deal with it without raping anyone. The PRR instead chooses to force his victims to play along with a game in which the PRR is desired by women and equal to or even better than other men. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-a-male-who-thinks-rape-is-about-sex-not-power/513212/359 "2009-10-23T22:43:38Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > ETA: I just succeeded in downloading one of your cites, McCabe and Wauchope (2005). > \ > **The Other Waldo Pepper** : Check out Theme 1 in the this !PDF!: www.hawaii.edu/hivandaids/Behavioural\_Characteristics\_of\_Rapists.pdf This isn’t a big deal, but just to avoid any potential confusion I wanted to point out that this isn’t the same article I cited earlier although it is by the same authors, has a similar title, and was published in the same year (I incorrectly gave 2003 as the year in my earlier list). It looks like it’s even based on the same studies. The article I cited dealt more specifically with the question of whether the behavior of the rapists covered in McCabe and Wauchope’s two studies was consistent with the different types of rapists in Hazelwood’s typology or the MTC:R3. They found that their data was in general consistent with these typologies, especially with regard to power reassurance and sadistic rapists, but found indications that the existing anger rapist and power exploitative rapist categories may be too simplistic. Since these two articles are so similar I don’t think it matters much which one people read (and it may be that you actually read both, I’m not sure from your post), but I wanted to head off any “Wait, that’s not what the article says!” misunderstandings. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-a-male-who-thinks-rape-is-about-sex-not-power/513212/360 "2009-10-24T02:30:53Z")
[QUOTE=Lamia] I read (well, skimmed) the relevant section of _The Blank Slate_ yesterday, and Pinker did indeed make this _analogy_. But he did not cite any _research_ about the motives of robbers, the motives of rapists, or a comparison of the two. He also did not claim that sex was the _sole_ motivation for rape. He argues against the idea that sex has nothing at all to do with rape, but he doesn’t claim that no other factors are involved. I’m not sure why you keep bringing up Pinker anyway. Pinker is a very intelligent person and there are several subjects upon which he is a prominent expert, but rape isn’t one of them. [/QUOTE] Whose pedigree would suffice, I wonder? The readiest Wiki seems to point up an expert named Richard Felson, with the PhD and the specialty and et cetera, whose _“book challenged the theory that rape was a crime motivated by an aggressive desire to dominate the victim. Felson and Tedeschi argued that sexual fulfillment was a motive of rapists. This book drew widespread criticism from academic circles. Robert Prentky the clinical director of Philadelphia’s Joseph J. Peters Institute argued that in a small number of cases sexual fulfillment was the motive. However the overriding motive was dominance of the victim.”_ > **[Richard Felson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Felson)** > > Richard Felson (born 10 October 1950, in Cincinnati) is a professor of Crime, Law, and Justice and Sociology at The Pennsylvania State University. He is also adjunct professor of Sociology at State University of New York at Albany. > In 1994 Felson co-authored the controversial book "Violence, Aggression and Coercive Actions: A Social-Interactionist Perspective" with James Tedeschi. This book challenged the theory that rape was a crime motivated by an aggressive desire to dominate the victim. Fels... (That summary intrigues me: _ **the** _ go-to counterargument against his claim was to grant that sexual fulfillment was the motive in some number of cases? If so, then it’s a mere quibble over degree.) > [@](#): > > It’s probably too strong to say that all rapists who want to inflict pain “get off” on it in a sexual sense – some want to hurt their victims because they’re angry, and others seem to have more a bully personality where they just think it’s fun to hurt others. And some, according to Hazelwood, don’t believe they’re harming others, sure as they lack the intent to cause harm. Hazelwood’s a weird guy. > [@](#): > > PRR apparently do not like to use violence because this would interfere with their fantasy that they’re having consensual sex with their victims. They don’t seem to _just_ want sex but instead what prostitutes call a “girlfriend experience”. They’ll say and do things that would be normal in a consensual relationship, like asking the victim if she’s having a good time or (in one of the cases examined by Fossi, et al) even offering her a cigarette afterward. But they do this while ignoring their victims’ protests Hazelwood disagrees; his read on PRRs is that _“If the victim resists, this rapist is most likely to compromise or negotiate with her.”_ > [@](#): > > From some of the PRR case studies it seems to me that even their fantasies are not about a straightforward consensual encounter, but an encounter where the victim is initially uninterested or resistant but then willingly gives in when she realizes how sexy her rapist is. The key element there is that she still _ **willingly** _ gives in, and why. It’s irrelevant that you can cite one so-called PRR for whom “threatening women with a gun first is telling”; the question is whether _ **every** _ so-called PRR has something “telling”, or whether even just _ **one** _ ever blandly matches Hazelwood’s proffered PRR traits: “No intent to physically harm … Does not consider the rape as harm … Did not verbally abuse her or use vulgar language … Did not physically abuse her … Normal sex … He even involved her in the type of sex she likes, just wanted to make her happy … Desires to please her … Fantasizes as consenting contact”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-a-male-who-thinks-rape-is-about-sex-not-power/513212.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-a-male-who-thinks-rape-is-about-sex-not-power/513212.md?page=19)