If you are a male who thinks rape is about sex, not power

[astro]

@you_with_the_face

You’re portraying sex as a passive process that the man is merely reacting to, as if he has been thrust into a situation that is not of his own creation. Too bizarre for me to even grok in the context of rape.

What do you think astro meant when he wrote this:

Reading what you wrote and what he wrote, I see no similarities. He’s essentially saying the threat of jail time is the one thing standing in between a horny man and rape. You’re not saying that, as in your scenarios, consequences of rape aren’t mentioned.

There’s something glaringly missing from astro’s distillation of what it takes to get a man to rape. He says there needs to be a high sex urge on the man’s part and the lack of fear regarding consequencess. But what he hasn’t stressed despite its importance is the desire not to one to do harm to another person, namely the rape victim. If rape laws were repealed tomorrow, I don’t think men would turn into rapists en masse, because most have been taught to value women and not treat them like walking vaginas.

That little detail is kind of important, because when we say “rape is about power, not sex”, it allows us to not label this as a sexual problem (even though sex is major component), but rather a problem regarding how the rapists relates to women and other people. It gets the focus off of the penis and the sexiness of his victim and puts it on his pyschology. I honestly don’t see why people would have a problem with this. What separates the rapist from the non-rapist is most likely empathy towards other people. Seems really obvious to me, but I’m not a man so what the hell do I know.

Blinking Duck is pretty much correct re his synopsis of my position. You seem to have this notion of a real life rapist as a deliberative sort of person who should be weighing all kinds of variables and options before he engages in rape including the victims feelings and physical well being, alternative sources of sexual satisfaction etc. I’m trying to make you understand that if the sexual urge is strong enough, and the (real life) rapist is mentally dysfunctional enough to disregard the shower of sanctions and punishments that will occur if he gets caught the last thing on his mind is the empathy with the victim.

If we are talking about the hypothetical scenario of a standard distribution population sample of extremely lustful men, who are generally well behaved in following social guidelines, but who in an (effectively fantasy) scenario are assured there will be no social consequences or repercussions whatsoever to their behavior, and are provided access to women they favor, I do believe that a number of these otherwise well behaved men may choose to take women they desire by force.

How many is a “number of these” in this fantasy scenario? I don’t know. Do I think it is “all” men or “most” men? Of course not, most socialized men will behave themselves despite a lack of social controls (at least for a while), but in any population there are number of outliers who are not so compliant, and it is my belief that these otherwise normal men in this consequence free fantasy land will turn to rape to satisfy their sexual urges if they are confident there are no consequences re social approbation, shunning, punishment etc. etc. involved.

Re these otherwise “normal” outliers is it 5%, 10% or 20% of the population I don’t know, but I do know it is far more than the population of mentally dysfunctional people that rape in real life. And beyond this, the reason these outliers would be raping is not motivated by power issues or other complex psychological issues, it’s because they want sex, period, not because they want to dominate or punish their victims even though operationally they are doing both in engaging in the rape.

It seems to offend the sensibilities of a lot of otherwise sophisticated people to assert that the human male sexual drive is strong enough in specific circumstances to override critical reasoning and judgment, and that a number of otherwise well behaved "normal’ human males are not necessarily going to remain well behaved in the absence of social controls, and will become sexual predators if the opportunity presents itself.

Does it offend people to think that sex drive wise they are a lot closer to chimps with a big brains than the son of Adam? Does it offend people to think that the act of violating a person need only involve the motivation to fulfill a primal urge? Does it offend people to think that if a man is horny enough it is not emotional empathy with the woman, but fear of sanction and punishment that make shim keep his hands to himself?

Be as offended as you want, but in the end you are just a big monkey with car keys.

[Lamia]

@you_with_the_face

I think portraying rape as being mainly about sex makes men look worse than framing the crime in terms of control and dominance. Why would making it be about power demonize men more than making it be about male horniness? At least only some men are pathologically domineering. But almost all men are horny. Not all of them are capable of rape, though.

I’ve been reading this thread and trying not to get sucked in to posting, but I wanted to chime in here to support ywtf. I’ve often seen the attitude here on the SDMB that the idea that “rape is about power” is something psycho feminazis came up with to vilify all men, with “rape is about sex” as the reasonable and non-manhating view. But, like ywtf, I see the latter as being far more negative about men. It’s clear enough to me that plenty of men – certainly the majority of men I know – do not suffer from a powerful desire to violently dominate women. But practically every man alive has at times been very, very horny.

The day I believe that rape is about nothing more than horniness will be the day I start treating every man like a rapist.

[Fake_Tales_of_San_Francisco]

@you_with_the_face

I’m saying a lot of men would n’t be able to get it up in that situation.

How do you know that?

[Freudian_Slit]

@Lamia

I’ve been reading this thread and trying not to get sucked in to posting, but I wanted to chime in here to support ywtf. I’ve often seen the attitude here on the SDMB that the idea that “rape is about power” is something psycho feminazis came up with to vilify all men, with “rape is about sex” as the reasonable and non-manhating view. But, like ywtf, I see the latter as being far more negative about men. It’s clear enough to me that plenty of men – certainly the majority of men I know – do not suffer from a powerful desire to violently dominate women. But practically every man alive has at times been very, very horny.

Yeah, agreed. I mean, there are fairly easy ways to get sex without rape if you’re so desperate. And it’s not like stealing something where you can be so desperate for money or jewels that you don’t care how you get it. Sex obtained via rape is so completely different from sex obtained normally that it’s not really comparable. The sex that most guys want is sex with a partner who gets off and is turned on by them–I’ve rarely heard a guy say that he likes the idea of being with a woman who’s visibly shuddering and waiting for it to be over. When you rape someone, that’s basically what you get–either someone actively resisting or someone lying there hoping it’ll be over and she won’t be killed at the end of it. I seriously hope the average guy doesn’t want that. Or doesn’t think, “Hmm, well, that’s not ideal, but I’ll take it.”

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Lamia

I’ve been reading this thread and trying not to get sucked in to posting, but I wanted to chime in here to support ywtf. I’ve often seen the attitude here on the SDMB that the idea that “rape is about power” is something psycho feminazis came up with to vilify all men, with “rape is about sex” as the reasonable and non-manhating view. But, like ywtf, I see the latter as being far more negative about men. It’s clear enough to me that plenty of men – certainly the majority of men I know – do not suffer from a powerful desire to violently dominate women. But practically every man alive has at times been very, very horny.

The day I believe that rape is about nothing more than horniness will be the day I start treating every man like a rapist.

I don’t object to “rape is about power.” I object to “rape is not about sex.”

It’s ridiculous, and your idea that “rape is about sex” is negative about men is absurd. Bankrobbing is about money, but does that mean that anyone who wants money is evil? Of course not.

Rape could be only about sex, it could only be motivated by horniness, and that still wouldn’t speak to the character of horny guys, because most guys are inhibited from acting on that horniness by one or more (usually more) countervailing forces. Empathy for the victim, fear of vengeance from friends and relatives of the victim, fear of ostracism from the rapist’s friends and relatives, religion, moral code, legal code, etc.: all of these may impede the desire to have sex with a woman against her will. Rape would only occur when there was an absence of those countervailing tendencies.

In other words, it’s not so much an evil motive that leads a man to rape: it’s a lack of decency coupled with a lack of social constraint that leads a man to rape. Rape isn’t about power, it’s about a lack of empathy and a lack of social consequences.

This is significant, because if we’re going to end rape, it shows us where to look. Consciousness-raising events that address power inequalities are probably not the way to go. Working on empathy and working on social consequences is the way to go.

Edit: FWIW, there are definitely some people in this thread putting forward the idea that feminists came up with “rape is not about sex” to vilify men, and you’re absolutely right that that’s a ridiculous idea.

[you_with_the_face]

@Fake_Tales_of_San_Francisco

How do you know that?

I’ve heard plenty of men opine that the biggest turn-off to them is a woman who acts like sex is the last thing she wants to do with him. Multiple SDBMs threads bear this out. Search them out, 'cuz I’m too lazy to do it. Plus, my own experiences with men in the bedroom tell me this. A large part of sexual enjoyment is causing enjoyment, and this applies to men and women.

If you doubt me, I could always start a thread in IMHO: “Are you physically capable of having sex with a woman against her will, who is fighting for her dear life?”

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Freudian_Slit

Yeah, agreed. I mean, there are fairly easy ways to get sex without rape if you’re so desperate. And it’s not like stealing something where you can be so desperate for money or jewels that you don’t care how you get it. Sex obtained via rape is so completely different from sex obtained normally that it’s not really comparable.

As I understand it, acquaintance rape tends not to work that way. The guy wants sex with a particular person. He figures that he’s entitled to that sex, for one reason or another, so he obtains it. Yeah, it’s probably not as satisfying for him as sex with that person were she willing would be, but hey, that’s the sex he’s entitled to, and by God he wants it, and by God he’ll have it.

It’s not a generalized desire for sex: it’s specific to the situation and to the victim.

I really wish I could find that article I read so many years ago. Lemme dig around.

[The_Other_Waldo_Pepper]

@you_with_the_face

If you doubt me, I could always start a thread in IMHO: “Are you physically capable of having sex with a woman against her will, who is fighting for her dear life?”

This has come up several times now, and I’m not quite sure it’s relevant: who says she’s got to be fighting for her dear life? Can’t someone rape a woman by threatening the use of force, such that she reluctantly submits instead of fighting back?

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

This link discusses a study showing that rapists and nonrapists are both more aroused by consenting sexual situations than by nonconsenting, but that the rapists show far less difference in their arousal between the two than nonrapists do.

This article also looks interesting, although it’s not what I’ve been looking for.

[mswas]

@you_with_the_face

Um, no. You’re saying you can have get an erection from a woman who is kicking and screaming and trying to get away from you. Very well. That’s you. I’m saying a lot of men would n’t be able to get it up in that situation.

Yeah, that would be kind of a mood killer. I prefer when she can’t get me undressed fast enough due to the power of her lust!

[Starving_Artist]

A considerable number of would-be rape victims have been murdered when their assailant couldn’t get it up, either because of embarrassment, misdirected fury or because the victim unwisely chose to laugh at or otherwise make fun of him for it.

[Starving_Artist]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

Edit: FWIW, there are definitely some people in this thread putting forward the idea that feminists came up with “rape is not about sex” to vilify men, and you’re absolutely right that that’s a ridiculous idea.

How can you say that, when so many of the so-called feminists who were known for promoting the idea made a regular practice of vilifying men?

[you_with_the_face]

@astro

Bl I’m trying to make you understand that if the sexual urge is strong enough, and the (real life) rapist is mentally dysfunctional enough to disregard the shower of sanctions and punishments that will occur if he gets caught **the last thing on his mind is the empathy with the victim. **

What I’m trying to get you to see is that the empathy thing isn’t a tiny matter here. It’s the distinguishing factor between the deranged and the non-deranged; and it’s why I don’t think most men–regardless of their drive–would rape someone if the opportunity presented itself.

I mean, you yourself in your first post in this thread indicated that the reason you don’t rape is because you don’t want to hurt anyone. The threat of punishment wasn’t even mentioned. Do you think most men are any different in this respect?

If we are talking about the hypothetical scenario of a standard distribution population sample of extremely lustful men, who are generally well behaved in following social guidelines, but who in an (effectively fantasy) scenario are assured there will be no social consequences or repercussions whatsoever to their behavior, and are provided access to women they favor, I do believe that a number of these otherwise well behaved men may choose to take women they desire by force.

Okay, I can accept this. My objection is calling these men “normal and healthy”, when their actions, by definition, require a sociopathic lapse in empathy and morality. The kind of rape also determines how many men I’d expect to rape. The spectrum of rape is wide. To make statements about what men could do under the right conditions as if all rape is the same is asinine. Statutory rape is one thing. Violent rape is another. Do I expect a lot more men to try to pick up 14, 15, and 16 years old? Hell yeah. Do I expect a lot more men to ambush female joggers and rape them in the bushes? No.

And beyond this, the reason these outliers would be raping is not motivated by power issues or other complex psychological issues, it’s because they want sex, period, not because they want to dominate or punish their victims even though operationally they are doing both in engaging in the rape.

Outliers in an abnormal set of conditions are inherently different than people who would rape under normal conditions. So saying that these guys want sex, period (I’m still curious as to why they are raping to get sex rather than choosing other means but whatever) doesn’t help us understand why rapes like this occur.

It seems to offend the sensibilities of a lot of otherwise sophisticated people to assert that the human male sexual drive is strong enough in specific circumstances to override critical reasoning and judgment, and that a number of otherwise well behaved "normal’ human males are not necessarily going to remain well behaved in the absence of social controls, and will become sexual predators if the opportunity presents itself.

It doesn’t offend me. I just think you’re oversimplfying rape in an attempt to reduce it to one thing (e.g. sex). The kind of rapist that I worry about the most has more problems going on than just a high libido and fearlessness. Glossing over this to make some statement about the power of the male sex drive doesn’t serve anyone well, IMHO.

[you_with_the_face]

@The_Other_Waldo_Pepper

This has come up several times now, and I’m not quite sure it’s relevant: who says she’s got to be fighting for her dear life?

Because that’s the situation that Francisco is arguing has no effect on his erection.

[gonzomax]

@Starving_Artist

How can you say that, when so many of the so-called feminists who were known for promoting the idea made a regular practice of vilifying men?

That is so typical. You get hammered for hair brained ideas and declare this board is 98 percent unreasoned liberals and therefore their opinions are just biased, and they should be ignored. Now a woman with an opinion different than yours must be due to their being feminist, and therefore she should be ignored. You have faux enemies everywhere. Just debate and quit name calling it is extremely dishonest. A person can have an opinion differing from you and have actually come up with it without subscribing to a horrible anti Starving Artist biased group. They do not have to be dues paying members of a :feminist" group to think rape is about power.
I disagree with them. I think it is stupid to not think sex is a huge component in rape. It is so illogical.

[Carmady]

@astro

It seems to offend the sensibilities of a lot of otherwise sophisticated people to assert that the human male sexual drive is strong enough in specific circumstances to override critical reasoning and judgment, and that a number of otherwise well behaved "normal’ human males are not necessarily going to remain well behaved in the absence of social controls, and will become sexual predators if the opportunity presents itself.

There are also otherwise sophisticated people who greatly enjoy “offending the sensibilities” of others and who are biased towards believing anything which allows them to do so.

I suspect you are drawn to your explanation of rape precisely because, if it offends people, it must be true. It rings totally false to me (a male).

You sound like you are talking about raping a blow up doll. I don’t care how “lustful” you are, there is some severe misogyny or sociopathy going on if you rape a woman. That is true even if there were no legal consequences whatsoever. If I had to guess, I would say feelings of powerlessness and misdirected anger often play key roles.

As strong as the male sex drive is, it is not nearly strong enough for an otherwise healthy, non-misogynist, non-sociopath to commit rape. Even with no legal consequences.

[Starving_Artist]

@gonzomax

That is so typical. You get hammered for hair brained ideas and declare this board is 98 percent unreasoned liberals and therefore their opinions are just biased, and they should be ignored. Now a woman with an opinion different than yours must be due to their being feminist, and therefore she should be ignored. You have faux enemies everywhere. Just debate and quit name calling it is extremely dishonest. A person can have an opinion differing from you and have actually come up with it without subscribing to a horrible anti Starving Artist biased group. They do not have to be dues paying members of a :feminist" group to think rape is about power.
I disagree with them. I think it is stupid to not think sex is a huge component in rape. It is so illogical.

Well, you certainly told me.

NOT!

What is typical is that you don’t know what you’re talking about. People like Andrea Dworkin, etc., were unabashed man-haters; Dworkin even going so far as to claim that all sex was rape. Therefore it is not at all unreasonable for people to conclude that the belief that rape is not about sex but power is one that was cooked up by man-hating feminists who were out to vilify men. In other words, I was saying that I thought LHoD was off the mark in his contention that such a belief was “ridiculous.”

Yet another way you are wrong is in saying I think 98 percent of the board consists of biased, unreasoned liberals. What I said (quite clearly, I would have thought) was that of the strongly biased and partisan posts made to this board, 98 percent come from liberal posters.

If you weren’t so strongly biased yourself and prone to jumping the gun every time you see my name, perhaps you’d be capable of making those kinds of distinctions.

[Lamia]

@gonzomax

I disagree with them. I think it is stupid to not think sex is a huge component in rape. It is so illogical.

I agree that it would be illogical to believe that someone who performs a sex act on an unwilling person actually didn’t want to perform that sex act, but I don’t think anyone really believes that. You can’t explain every element of every rape in seven words, so “Rape isn’t about sex, it’s about power” is obviously a simplification. I’ve always understood this sentence to mean something like “Rape is not motivated solely or even primarily by a desire for sex, it is motivated primarily by a desire to exert power over another person”.

Since I can’t read the minds of rapists I don’t know that this interpretation is factually correct, but I’m pretty sure it is the intended meaning of “Rape isn’t about sex, it’s about power.” I very much doubt that any significant number of people (extreme feminists or otherwise) ever believed that no rapist has ever experienced any sexual pleasure while committing rape.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Lamia

I’ve always understood this sentence to mean something like “Rape is not motivated solely or even primarily by a desire for sex, it is motivated primarily by a desire to exert power over another person”.

But even that understanding of what rape is about seems really flawed. For many men, it’s motivated primarily by a desire to have sex with a particular woman, and the power is a means to an end, and the rape occurs because the man lacks the decency and social inhibitions that prevent rape from occurring in other cases.

[gonzomax]

@Starving_Artist

Well, you certainly told me.

NOT!

What is typical is that you don’t know what you’re talking about. People like Andrea Dworkin, etc., were unabashed man-haters; Dworkin even going so far as to claim that all sex was rape. Therefore it is not at all unreasonable for people to conclude that the belief that rape is not about sex but power is one that was cooked up by man-hating feminists who were out to vilify men. In other words, I was saying that I thought LHoD was off the mark in his contention that such a belief was “ridiculous.”

Yet another way you are wrong is in saying I think 98 percent of the board consists of biased, unreasoned liberals. What I said (quite clearly, I would have thought) was that of the strongly biased and partisan posts made to this board, 98 percent come from liberal posters.

If you weren’t so strongly biased yourself and prone to jumping the gun every time you see my name, perhaps you’d be capable of making those kinds of distinctions.

A distinction without a difference.
You are always doing that. It could be simply you are full of shit. It is not a cabal against you. You see people who disagree with you as people who are non thinking group joiners. You on the other hand are just really open minded and come up with right wing weirdo crap all on your own. Do yourself a favor and just debate. You insult people and pull numbers out iof your sphincter.
You over rate your significance. I don’t jump when I see your name, I get a little depressed. I know what kind of crap I will face and I feel sorry for you. So young and you have so many imagined enemies.