If you are a male who thinks rape is about sex, not power

[Shodan]

@Huerta88

The other thing was that it was intended to shut down the debate on whether the putative victim really didn’t consent or (even more controversially) had acted foolishly in putting herself in a situation that would be expected to end badly (or be remembered badly when she sobered up). Who would consent to an act of violence and power?

To the extent that it quashed the notion that women really want to be raped, or that rape isn’t a serious crime. and especially that date rape isn’t a serious crime, then feminism did good and noble work. A man who takes advantage of his power, physical, psychological or social, to force a woman into sex when she doesn’t want to, is a pig, and the feminists are quite right to point this out and condemn it.

To the extent that it means that anyone who points out that stupid actions are stupid gets called a pig, or that it suggests that women don’t have a duty to act responsibly, feminism fails.

Yes, rape and sexual exploitation are wrong and evil. But getting drunk in public, or in the company of men you don’t know is stupid. Stupid isn’t the same as evil, but it gets punished pretty much as often.

You remember “the Principia Mathematica is a rape manual?” Do they even take this stuff seriously themselves? Maybe they do.

I missed that one, perhaps fortunately.

But yeah, I think some do take this kind of thing seriously, which is what I meant by descending into parody. Some aspects of reality are almost unchangeable, and it does no good and some harm to call that “sexist”.

The reality is that men are bigger and more aggressive, especially sexually, than women. One of the things that (for lack of a better term) “chivalry” towards women is meant to address is this. It is not always demeaning to women to take your hat off to speak to a woman (to take a trivial example) or “ladies first” or things like that. I am not talking about “you can’t have that job because you are a girl and you will get PMS and cry”. I mean the general expectation that the strong should respect the weak, not exploit them, and men have a higher duty of behavior than women do.

Some of the more extreme forms of feminism fought hard against those kinds of behaviors. This is fine as far as it goes, but the effect is going to be to remove that expectation of chivalry from general social interaction. And another place where feminism failed is in its attempt to replace that general social code with a much less flexible and therefore much less effective legal approach. I am talking about the campus codes of behavior where you have to get explicit permission at each and every step of the dating/seduction process. That’s formalistic and awkward. A general expectation of how a gentleman interacts with a lady, ISTM, works better, even in cases where the gentleman is trying to get the lady’s blouse unbuttoned.

But then again, I am an old fart, and haven’t tried to unbutton anyone’s blouse except one for the last thirty years or so.

Regards,
Shodan

[Muffin]

@Shodan

And another place where feminism failed is in its attempt to replace that general social code with a much less flexible and therefore much less effective legal approach. I am talking about the campus codes of behavior where you have to get explicit permission at each and every step of the dating/seduction process. That’s formalistic and awkward.

Sexual Consent

[Shodan]

I’ve seen that one before - it would be funnier if it didn’t ring a bell.

Sex as a game of Captain, May I. Thank God I am no longer in the dating pool.

Regards,
Shodan

[Grumman]

@astro

There are in fact levels of lust and horniness that will lead quite directly to rape if the opportunity presents itself, and the rapist perceives that the consequences are negligible. Your notion that there just HAS to be something else in the mix beyond the pure desire (and consequence free opportunity) to force yourself upon, and couple with, a woman you find desirable is absurd on it’s face.

You’re kidding, right? If this is true of you, then you are a sociopath, even if a lack of opportunity or fear of reprisal keeps you in check.

[Measure_for_Measure]

@Der_Trihs

And the line was common in the 80’s and the 90’s as well.

That said, ill-considered feminism started to die in the late 1980s and took a real beating in the 1990s. By the time I arrived at this board, it was dead. Thank Nadine Strossen and a few brave hatchet women of the era.

[AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet]

I came across a scathing deconstruction of the “rape is not about sex” myth. It seems that the myth is based on some interviews with dudes in prison for violent stranger-rape, the kind of rapists for whom rape is least about sex. It turns out the people interviewing them were looking for a clear answer, and prisoners often will say whatever they think the people in power want to hear, hoping it’ll lead to earlier parole or some such.

When date-rapists, child-rapists, etc. are interviewed, the rape is most certainly about sex. Power comes into it because the rapist doesn’t give a shit whether their victim is a partner or a victim, and they have enough power that they aren’t forced to care. For them, rape is as much about power as turning on a porn movie would be about power. Both sex acts are contingent on their power over the tool they’re using to get off. The fact that the tool in one case is a living breathing person really doesn’t matter so much to them.

So in other words date rapists and child rapists are extremely self centered? Agreed…they only care about THEIR feelings.
What people mean when they say that rape isn’t about sex, is that it’s not about lovemaking between two consenting people.
Rape is about using your genitials to ATTACK someone. It’s just like a physical attack, but instead of fists or other weapons a penis is used.

[astro]

Originally Posted by astro
There are in fact levels of lust and horniness that will lead quite directly to rape if the opportunity presents itself, and the rapist perceives that the consequences are negligible. Your notion that there just HAS to be something else in the mix beyond the pure desire (and consequence free opportunity) to force yourself upon, and couple with, a woman you find desirable is absurd on it’s face.

Originally Posted by Grumman
You’re kidding, right? If this is true of you, then you are a sociopath, even if a lack of opportunity or fear of reprisal keeps you in check.

Are you hard of reading or something? It is perfectly natural for a man (esp a young man) to feel extreme lust for a desirable woman, wherein he may fantasize or muse about what it would be like to make love to her, or even ravish her. The vast majority of men have sufficient impulse control, an ethical moral framework, and enough of a rational understanding of consequences and fear of social sanctions that following up on these sexual feelings by attacking a woman is never even contemplated. Some men lack any or all of these attributes and may attack and rape women if the opportunity presents itself.

How we got from that simple factual statement about the sex drive of the human male, and his mental landscape to the notion that understanding that point makes one a sociopath is amusing. Insane but amusing.

[Starving_Artist]

@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet

Rape is about using your genitials to ATTACK someone. It’s just like a physical attack…

Sorry, but I disagree. It’s more like an attack is used to facilitate sex. What is so hard to understand about this? This is why date rape drugs get used. They facilitate easy, non-violent rape.

Many rapists do all they can to avoid having to use violence, employing guns, knives or even the threat of fists in order to gain compliance without having to resort to using them.

And occasionally rapists get fooled when their victims pretend to like them and lead them to believe that a romantic relationship is in the offing when in reality they are being set up for future arrest. In these types of rape the assailant is clearly starved for love (or perhaps obsessed with that particular victim). In either case, in these types of instances the rapist’s primary interest is not in doing his victim violent physical harm.

Yes, some rape is violent and some rape is not about sex. But I’d be willing to wager just about any amount I could come up with that the vast majority of rape is about sex.

[Grumman]

@astro

Are you hard of reading or something? It is perfectly natural for a man (esp a young man) to feel extreme lust for a desirable woman, wherein he may fantasize or muse about what it would be like to make love to her, or even ravish her. The vast majority of men have sufficient impulse control, an ethical moral framework, and enough of a rational understanding of consequences and fear of social sanctions that following up on these sexual feelings by attacking a woman is never even contemplated. Some men lack any or all of these attributes and may attack and rape women if the opportunity presents itself.

Read your own posts: in the first post you claimed that given extreme lust, opportunity, and a lack of consequences, someone who didn’t have “something else in the mix” would be willing to rape. You explicitly stated that the previous poster’s argument - that something else like a sociopathic indifference to the feelings of others must exist for them to be willing to rape someone - “is not a “FACT”, it is specious nonsense you are trying to hand wave into existence”.

At least have the guts to admit that your initial statement doesn’t reflect your beliefs, instead of acting like it’s my fault you can’t communicate.

[mswas]

@astro

You are confusing and/or conflating the genesis of the act of lust driven rape (sexual desire) with the operational aspects of achieving that end (physical domination). My answer to the question of what lust driven rape is"about" in addressing the genesis and objective of lust driven rape is “sex”.

Saying that the primary impulse and driving motivation to do something you desire is really about the operational means and opportunity to achieve that end is kind of cart and horsing the question IMO.

I think you are overestimating your ability to reduce the range of emotion to first principles. The sex and coercion are part and parcel. If someone wants to have sex with someone who doesn’t want to have sex with them, then they want to possess that person and have power over them. When we talk about having sex with someone we use the word, ‘have’, to describe them. Dick had Jane in the coat closet. Now Jane could have wanted it, or she might not have. Either way there is a power component, a ‘having’ of another person. You cannot separate sex from power anymore than you can separate power and money.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet

So in other words date rapists and child rapists are extremely self centered? Agreed…they only care about THEIR feelings.

Pretty much–or they delude themselves (or are astonishingly ill-informed) into thinking that their behaviors don’t hurt the feelings of their victims. “She really wanted it” is a common defense.

What people mean when they say that rape isn’t about sex, is that it’s not about lovemaking between two consenting people.

If that’s what they mean, they’re still being chuckleheads. First, it’s a tautology that rape isn’t about sex between two consenting people: that’s pretty much the definition of rape. Second, not all sex is lovemaking; there’s a reason why “sex” and “lovemaking” are different words. They mean different things.

Rape is about using your genitials to ATTACK someone. It’s just like a physical attack, but instead of fists or other weapons a penis is used.

No, it’s not just like a physical attack, because the point of a physical attack is to injure someone else or to cause them pain. While that’s sometimes the goal of a rapist, in acquaintance rape, the goal is usually physical pleasure for the rapist. The problem with your claim is that a rapist may use it to excuse his behavior: “I wasn’t trying to hurt her, therefore it’s not rape.”

We need to be absolutely clear with people, especially with boys just entering puberty, that getting your rocks off with a nonconsenting partner is rape, end of story.

[Fake_Tales_of_San_Francisco]

Using your genitals to attack someone? Cock blocking takes on a whole new meaning!

[Der_Trihs]

@Fake_Tales_of_San_Francisco

Using your genitals to attack someone? Cock blocking takes on a whole new meaning!

Or pussy whipping.

[furt]

@Nametag

The power of the argument lies in the FACT that there is NO degree of lust, horniness, or sexual attraction that will lead to rape. Not by itself. There is ALWAYS something else going on -

Bullshit. Unless you have some kind of empirical cite. Putting your opinions in caps does not make them more impressive.

@Normal_Phase

Good post. I think most of the “rape’s not about power, how silly is that?” stuff is a strawman argument that strips all complexity from the phrase and fails to recognize the context in which it was coined.

Um, no. You are the one ercting a strawman, since nobody here has said anything close to “rape’s not about power.” What they have said is that the motivations for rape are complex and may include power, but may also include sexual desire. It is the OP that is stripping away all complexity from the phrase.

[Nzinga_Seated]

@furt

You are the one ercting a strawman, since nobody here has said anything close to “rape’s not about power.”

Yeah. Now might be a good time to restate the argument. We all agree that rape is probably almost always about power on some level. But it is the women that I have heard say, “It is about power; not about sex” that I strongly disagree with.

Unless they can show me other shows of power that ends in orgasm. Does a man literally come when he closes a big deal on Wall Street, or is successful in a hostile business takeover, or something.

[astro]

@mswas

I think you are overestimating your ability to reduce the range of emotion to first principles. The sex and coercion are part and parcel. If someone wants to have sex with someone who doesn’t want to have sex with them, then they want to possess that person and have power over them. When we talk about having sex with someone we use the word, ‘have’, to describe them. Dick had Jane in the coat closet. Now Jane could have wanted it, or she might not have. Either way there is a power component, a ‘having’ of another person. You cannot separate sex from power anymore than you can separate power and money.

It is clear you are still conflating the genesis and the operational aspects of the point at issue and we are talking about two different things. You can claim as some sort of meta point that there is a differential coercive “power” relationship of one kind or another in practically any human interaction. No one is denying a rapist seeking sexual gratification has to have some level of coercive power to operationalize his goal of having sex. No one is denying that for the victim being raped it is very much a question of power, coercion and being physically dominated.

The question at issue here is not the one you are addressing, the question being debated here is if sexual desire, in and of itself, could be a sufficient motivating impulse, in the absence of social controls or consequences, for some men to rape women or does this motivation* have* to include some inherent desire to dominate or otherwise have power over the rape victim. I am arguing that sexual desire as the motivating impulse is more than sufficiently powerful for some men to initiate rape, and that the notion that this impulse is not sufficient, and is by necessity really a subset of some desire to dominate the woman vs having simply wanting to have sex with her is erroneous.

While rape is enormously complex in it’s consequences, especially for the victim, at the ground level question of “Why did this man rape this women?” extreme lust is a more than sufficient motivating impulse for some men in certain circumstances. A *desire *to dominate does not have to be coupled with an extreme desire to have sex even though physical dominance will be required as an operational aspect of making this happen. While operationally lust and dominance may be “part and parcel” of completing the act of rape separating out extreme sexual desire or lust as the motivating impulse is not the irreducible conundrum you make it out to be.

[Fake_Tales_of_San_Francisco]

Isn’t consensual sex about power too?

[AHunter3]

@Fake_Tales_of_San_Francisco

Isn’t consensual sex about power too?

Inevitably? Or sometimes?

[Lobsang]

@MissIntent

Do you fantasize about raping women? Would you rape a woman if you wouldn’t get in trouble for it?

Only at those men who argue that rape is about sex, not about power or dominance. If you believe that, what stops you from doing it, since you consider it to be a part of sex?

This is inspired from the pit thread about a fat patient waiting to get blood drawn, a poster in there implied that people are ignorant if they think rape is about power, not sex. So to him and any others that support that view, what stops you then? Are you just not man enough for it, since you believe it’s just another sex act?

And I’m starting this in the pit because I’m sure it’d end up here sooner than later.

What the fuck?

Having never Raped or wanted to rape anyone: I’ve assumed rape is about being sexually depraved, lacking respect for women and the law, and being weak willed.

I am entirely willing to accept that my assumption is wrong.

But what stops me? Well, let’s say for the sake of argument that I DID have the urge to rape someone (which I don’t) What stops me is not being an asshole. not wanting to do something to a woman that she doesn’t want done to her.

Same reason as I don’t go around punching and kicking people I don’t like. Same reason I don’t go around taking other people’s valuable property.

I’m ‘man’ enough to know what behaviour is good and what behaviour is shitty.
But still. Because I am not, nor ever have been a rapist, I have no idea what goes on in their minds. I can only assume they simply desire to get sexual relief and don’t really care about harming someone to get it.
I never really understood the “I am more powerful than you and I will show it by forcing sex upon you” point of view. I just don’t get it. Why choose sex as the tool with which to exert power. Sex is a significant enough thing that it could actually possibly, maybe be about, you know, wanting to have sex??

[Lobsang]

Too late for edit.
Apologies to responding directly to the OP in an already well-ongoing thread. I just chose to read it today and couldn’t beleive the implication that human civilized males are somehow pussies if they don’t go around raping women when they want to get their end away.