# If you are Pro-life, why SHOULDN'T women be punished for abortions? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 3, 2016, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-pro-life-why-shouldnt-women-be-punished-for-abortions/751098 "2016-04-03T17:44:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-pro-life-why-shouldnt-women-be-punished-for-abortions/751098/21 "2016-04-04T03:23:28Z")
> [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](#): > > If a woman shouldn’t be punished for an illegal abortion, she shouldn’t be punished for prostitution either. As other posters have noted, decriminalizing prostitution on the part of sex workers but continuing to prosecute **paying** for prostitution—so the john is a criminal but the hooker is not—is indeed the way the law is set up in some countries. One important difference between this and abortion, though, is that consensual prostitution is a victimless crime, whereas anti-abortion advocates generally argue that abortion is literally murder of an innocent victim, or at the very least an unconscionable infringement of the right to life of the innocent victim. The principle in punishing murder is to punish **all** accomplices who were knowingly and deliberately involved in the murder. Even if you’re going to argue that in a victimless crime such as selling illegal drugs or prostitution it’s okay not to punish one of the parties to the transaction, that reasoning doesn’t hold good for participants in a crime where the victim is an innocent third party. In particular, it can be argued that what a john is being punished for is exploiting a prostitute, just as we punish sweatshop owners for exploiting laborers illegally but we don’t punish the sweatshop workers themselves for acquiescing in illegal working conditions. But if you’re going to argue that what an abortion provider is really being punished for is victimizing pregnant women, then the notion of the **fetus** as the primary victim of the crime falls to the ground. If an aborted fetus is a murder victim, then there’s no way out of treating both the abortion provider and the abortion seeker as complicit in the murder. ---
**Author:** ![spamforbrains](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@spamforbrains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spamforbrains)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-pro-life-why-shouldnt-women-be-punished-for-abortions/751098/22 "2016-04-04T03:59:02Z")
Because it’s a horrific violation of human rights to force a woman to gestate a fetus that she doesn’t want living in her body? Most women are willing to die rather than be forced to go through that. What punishment could you come up with that would stop them from trying to get rid of the parasite destroying her body and life? Basically it’s totally ineffective. Personally, I’d rather spend life in prison or even be executed than be forced to have my body co-opted. The statistics indicate I am not alone. We are not incubators. What are you going to do when all women end up in prison because we refuse to become walking incubators? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-pro-life-why-shouldnt-women-be-punished-for-abortions/751098/23 "2016-04-04T04:07:17Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I suggested in another post that there were three reasons: > > 1. Bad optics. It’s just not politically palatable. It’s just this. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-pro-life-why-shouldnt-women-be-punished-for-abortions/751098/24 "2016-04-04T07:57:30Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Precisely. It is pure political bullshit. Just like rape/incest exceptions, or ignoring embryos created and destroyed in fertility clinics. Dunnow about the US, but in Spain unused embryos are available for adoption. ---
**Author:** ![T.M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ad7895/32.png) [@T.M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.M)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-pro-life-why-shouldnt-women-be-punished-for-abortions/751098/25 "2016-04-04T08:25:14Z")
Personally I am against abortion with the exception of medical emergencies and rape victims, but that is just me. One of the problems in the UK is abortion being treated as a form of contraception with an increase of woman having gone through two or more abortions the most that I have heard of is five so at the very least the abortion act needs to be tightened up with doctors who are not complying with the law facing legal charges. We need to educate our girls on the realities of single parenthood of how tough it is that it is a hard and often lonely life style choice. We need more education of our young men, to many think that their pleasure ends with the conception, we need tough new laws to ensure they face their financial responsibilities, to be deducted directly from earnings or welfare payments. Another area to be tackled is illegal abortionists, they should serve 10-15 years prison time. To reduce the number of abortions we need to tackle a whole raft of problems number one being the parents of pregnant daughters who need to get off their high horse and realise they are about to greet their new grand child who maybe unexpected but is still a blessing who will return their love if allowed to live ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-pro-life-why-shouldnt-women-be-punished-for-abortions/751098/26 "2016-04-04T08:30:25Z")
> [@T.M](#): > > Personally I am against abortion with the exception of medical emergencies and rape victims, but that is just me. One of the problems in the UK is abortion being treated as a form of contraception with an increase of woman having gone through two or more abortions the most that I have heard of is five so at the very least the abortion act needs to be tightened up with doctors who are not complying with the law facing legal charges. We need to educate our girls on the realities of single parenthood of how tough it is that it is a hard and often lonely life style choice. Single parenting is tough and hard and lonely, so we need changes in the law to make it harder for women to choose not to be single parents. ---
**Author:** ![T.M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ad7895/32.png) [@T.M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.M)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-pro-life-why-shouldnt-women-be-punished-for-abortions/751098/27 "2016-04-04T12:03:54Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > Single parenting is tough and hard and lonely, so we need **changes in the law to make it harder for women to choose not to be single parents**. Many single mothers come from low income or welfare families, they already endure tough lives made even tougher by a unplanned pregnancy. We need to encourage these young ladies with their schooling, create within them a sense of high self value, they need to know that education has no cut off point that they can continue to learn at their own pace, that through hard work a well paid job is a possibility. Punishment is the last thing these young ladies need. It is the young men who think that they can sow their seed and run that need to be taken to task and left in no uncertainty that they will be held financial responsible. Lowering the abortion rate should be the ideal and to do that we need to reduce the cases of unplanned pregnancies and education is one of the ways to achieve this. Trumps stupidity and indigent parents who turn their backs on their future grand children are a large part of the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-pro-life-why-shouldnt-women-be-punished-for-abortions/751098/28 "2016-04-04T13:22:25Z")
> [@Smitty](#): > > From a logical perspective, if you are against abortion, shouldn’t you agree that **both** parties are liable? Yes, but you’re arguing logic, not politics. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-pro-life-why-shouldnt-women-be-punished-for-abortions/751098/29 "2016-04-04T13:50:22Z")
I’ll never understand why people feel that taking responsibility for their own actions is such a crime. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-pro-life-why-shouldnt-women-be-punished-for-abortions/751098/30 "2016-04-04T13:52:21Z")
> [@spamforbrains](#): > > Most women are willing to die rather than be forced to go through that. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-pro-life-why-shouldnt-women-be-punished-for-abortions/751098/31 "2016-04-04T13:55:06Z")
> [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](#): > > feminists/ Hillary/ Obama supporters Yeah, that part ruins your comment. Don’t paint everyone with a broad brush. I am a feminist who supports Hillary and Obama but I’m oppose restrictions on porn and I lean toward making prostitution legal too. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-pro-life-why-shouldnt-women-be-punished-for-abortions/751098/32 "2016-04-04T13:56:38Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Dunnow about the US, but in Spain unused embryos are available for adoption. Sometimes they are here too, though it rarely happens. The fact is that embryos are routinely destroyed in the clinics. Nobody seems to ever picket them or try to shut them down or bomb them though, as with abortion clinics. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-pro-life-why-shouldnt-women-be-punished-for-abortions/751098/33 "2016-04-04T14:03:27Z")
The big question is, do criminal penalties (on either side) actually decrease the number of abortions? And more to the point, do they decrease the number of abortions more than a number of other potential measures that could be taken, but which often get ignored? From what I’ve seen, the single biggest way to decrease the number of abortions is to improve the economic situation of the lower class. So let’s start there. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-pro-life-why-shouldnt-women-be-punished-for-abortions/751098/34 "2016-04-04T14:11:36Z")
> [@spamforbrains](#): > > Because it’s a horrific violation of human rights to force a woman to gestate a fetus that she doesn’t want living in her body? Most women are willing to die rather than be forced to go through that. Where do you get these crazy ideas from (emphasis added)? Have you been chatting with a certain guy who likes to wear shirts of a certain color? ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-pro-life-why-shouldnt-women-be-punished-for-abortions/751098/35 "2016-04-04T15:06:58Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The big question is, do criminal penalties (on either side) actually decrease the number of abortions? And more to the point, do they decrease the number of abortions more than a number of other potential measures that could be taken, but which often get ignored? > > From what I’ve seen, the single biggest way to decrease the number of abortions is to improve the economic situation of the lower class. So let’s start there. There were 180 abortions for every 1,000 live births in 1972 the year before Roe v Wade. Abortion was legal in 20 states before the decision and all 50 states after. In 1974 there were 242 abortions for every 1,000 live births. That number increased every year for a decade and has slowly come down to 210 in 2012. That number does not seem to track either the poverty rate or the number of poor people. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-pro-life-why-shouldnt-women-be-punished-for-abortions/751098/36 "2016-04-04T15:11:53Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The big question is, do criminal penalties (on either side) actually decrease the number of abortions? And more to the point, do they decrease the number of abortions more than a number of other potential measures that could be taken, but which often get ignored? > > From what I’ve seen, the single biggest way to decrease the number of abortions is to improve the economic situation of the lower class. So let’s start there. That may ultimately be the big question, but policy-wise, would it make sense to say “This thing will be illegal and without knowing the impact of any particular policy choice, we’re going to exempt the most obvious perpetrator from any punishment”? I can’t think of any activity that I consider heinous enough to make illegal that I would then say “But it’s okay if this class of people does it.” That just doesn’t make sense to me as a starting point. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-pro-life-why-shouldnt-women-be-punished-for-abortions/751098/37 "2016-04-04T16:21:15Z")
> [@spamforbrains](#): > > What are you going to do when all women end up in prison because we refuse to become walking incubators? Personally I’ll probably have a milkshake. Like I do on most Mondays. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-pro-life-why-shouldnt-women-be-punished-for-abortions/751098/38 "2016-04-04T16:46:58Z")
Based on their rhetoric, here is my take. Deep down no woman actually wants to have an abortion. They just aren’t informed about all of their options and feel trapped by their circumstances, or are seduced by the liberal baby killing industry that lies to them that abortions are fun. Every woman that does have an abortion is wracked with guilt about the fact that they killed their child. Having an abortion is the worst thing that can happen to a woman. It’s way worse than rape, which is why they mercifully try to prevent victims of rape from having an abortion. So there is no need for extra punishment for a woman who had an abortion. She has suffered enough. ---
**Author:** ![boffking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/858c86/32.png) [@boffking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boffking)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-pro-life-why-shouldnt-women-be-punished-for-abortions/751098/39 "2016-04-04T16:53:13Z")
Why do anti-abortionists commit terrorist attacks? Being “pro-life” should not include acts like setting off pipe bombs, or shooting doctors. It seems about as anti-life as you could be. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-pro-life-why-shouldnt-women-be-punished-for-abortions/751098/40 "2016-04-04T17:28:37Z")
I’ve always believed, and Trump has discovered, that the reason why women are not targeted by the anti-choice crowd is that such an idea plays very, very badly to the public [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-pro-life-why-shouldnt-women-be-punished-for-abortions/751098.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-pro-life-why-shouldnt-women-be-punished-for-abortions/751098.md?page=3)