# If you are Pro-life, why SHOULDN'T women be punished for abortions? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 3, 2016, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-pro-life-why-shouldnt-women-be-punished-for-abortions/751098 "2016-04-03T17:44:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-pro-life-why-shouldnt-women-be-punished-for-abortions/751098/41 "2016-04-04T17:32:04Z")
> [@boffking](#): > > Why do anti-abortionists commit terrorist attacks? Being “pro-life” should not include acts like setting off pipe bombs, or shooting doctors. It seems about as anti-life as you could be. No it’s not. If there were buildings where people took their children to be killed, thousands each day, and the government did nothing to stop it, it would be justified to blow them up and kill a few of the murderers with them. Or, sorry to Godwin, if there were Nazi death camps… The terrorist anti-abortionists are the only ones who actually live up to their true beliefs. The rest sit on their butts and say “abortion is murder and millions of children die every year!” and then watch reruns of Frazier and forget about it. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-pro-life-why-shouldnt-women-be-punished-for-abortions/751098/42 "2016-04-04T17:55:47Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > The terrorist anti-abortionists are the only ones who actually live up to their true beliefs. So you’re not really pro-life unless you’re killing people? 😕 May I assume that you approve of everything going on in the world that you aren’t actively, violently fighting against? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-pro-life-why-shouldnt-women-be-punished-for-abortions/751098/43 "2016-04-04T18:01:33Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > So you’re not really pro-life unless you’re killing people? 😕 > > May I assume that you approve of everything going on in the world that you aren’t actively, violently fighting against? Not everything is worth violently fighting against. But wouldn’t you say that if there were hundreds of children being sent to death camps every day in your town, and the authorities refused to do a thing about it, it would be worth killing a few of the murderers to stop it? ---
**Author:** ![T.M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ad7895/32.png) [@T.M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.M)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-pro-life-why-shouldnt-women-be-punished-for-abortions/751098/44 "2016-04-04T19:47:06Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The big question is, do criminal penalties (on either side) actually decrease the number of abortions? And more to the point, do they decrease the number of abortions more than a number of other potential measures that could be taken, but which often get ignored? > > From what I’ve seen, the single biggest way to decrease the number of abortions is to improve the economic situation of the lower class. So let’s start there. Exactly and you do that through education ---
**Author:** ![T.M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ad7895/32.png) [@T.M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.M)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-pro-life-why-shouldnt-women-be-punished-for-abortions/751098/45 "2016-04-04T19:51:54Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > There were 180 abortions for every 1,000 live births in 1972 the year before Roe v Wade. Abortion was legal in 20 states before the decision and all 50 states after. In 1974 there were 242 abortions for every 1,000 live births. That number increased every year for a decade and has slowly come down to 210 in 2012. That number does not seem to track either the poverty rate or the number of poor people. It is not a question of poor people wanting more abortions it is a question of economics forcing them into a decision they really do not want to make ---
**Author:** ![T.M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ad7895/32.png) [@T.M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.M)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-pro-life-why-shouldnt-women-be-punished-for-abortions/751098/46 "2016-04-04T19:57:50Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Based on their rhetoric, here is my take. > > Deep down no woman actually wants to have an abortion. They just aren’t informed about all of their options and feel trapped by their circumstances, or are seduced by the liberal baby killing industry that lies to them that abortions are fun. Every woman that does have an abortion is wracked with guilt about the fact that they killed their child. Having an abortion is the worst thing that can happen to a woman. It’s way worse than rape, which is why they mercifully try to prevent victims of rape from having an abortion. So there is no need for extra punishment for a woman who had an abortion. She has suffered enough. Woman that I know who have had an abortion have not had the enormous psychological effect explained to them and the guilt that they will suffer ---
**Author:** ![tullsterx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tullsterx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tullsterx)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-pro-life-why-shouldnt-women-be-punished-for-abortions/751098/47 "2016-04-04T20:06:54Z")
There is no reason why women shouldn’t be held liable for getting an abortion were it illegal. The world has gone completely insane. I’m “pro-choice” and it’s not just the right that’s being hypocritical about this, the left is also when Clinton is aghast about punishing women for getting abortions. If abortion were illegal of course women should hold some responsibility. Here’s my new bumper sticker: ABORTION: It’s my CHOICE but I’m not responsible. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-pro-life-why-shouldnt-women-be-punished-for-abortions/751098/48 "2016-04-04T22:10:42Z")
If abortion was illegal and they didn’t attach a punishment to the mother who seeks an abortion wouldn’t that be a bit like saying it’s ok for a mob boss to put out a hit on someone as long as he doesn’t pull the trigger? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-pro-life-why-shouldnt-women-be-punished-for-abortions/751098/49 "2016-04-04T22:33:17Z")
> [@drewder](#): > > If abortion was illegal and they didn’t attach a punishment to the mother who seeks an abortion wouldn’t that be a bit like saying it’s ok for a mob boss to put out a hit on someone as long as he doesn’t pull the trigger? Who would take such a silly position? What moron would think it’s okay to tell people to rough someone up, and promise to pay their bills, and – hey, wait a minute. ---
**Author:** ![Arcite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/67e7ee/32.png) [@Arcite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arcite)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2016, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-pro-life-why-shouldnt-women-be-punished-for-abortions/751098/50 "2016-04-05T01:43:29Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Based on their rhetoric, here is my take. > > Deep down no woman actually wants to have an abortion. They just aren’t informed about all of their options and feel trapped by their circumstances, or are seduced by the liberal baby killing industry that lies to them that abortions are fun. Every woman that does have an abortion is wracked with guilt about the fact that they killed their child. Having an abortion is the worst thing that can happen to a woman. It’s way worse than rape, which is why they mercifully try to prevent victims of rape from having an abortion. So there is no need for extra punishment for a woman who had an abortion. She has suffered enough. And as if right on cue, [here is pastor Douglas Wilson](https://dougwils.com/s7-engaging-the-culture/trump-corduroy-pillow.html), a guy who would be much reviled among SDMB cultural-left types: > [@](#): > > We are dealing with millions of cases. It is the view of politically active pro-lifers that the penalties should fall on those who know what they are doing. Medically trained doctors know exactly what they are doing. The ghouls at Planned Parenthood know exactly what they have been selling. > > And the view about the mothers, _taken as a class_, is that they have been fraudulently manipulated into a form of negligent manslaughter. That kind of problem is best answered with information — ultrasounds and more. This is why pro-lifers for decades have offered support, information, care, and medical services to mothers. The laws have been aimed at doctors who were after the blood money. And in the main, this has been a very effective and reasonable distinction. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2016, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-pro-life-why-shouldnt-women-be-punished-for-abortions/751098/51 "2016-04-08T21:12:41Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Over at 538, Leah Libresco refers to an informal survey she did of every 5th member she encountered at a Washington Anti-Abortion demonstration. n=60: caveat lector. Only 15% of the demonstrators would charge the woman with murder: another 25% advocated manslaughter charges. (15+25=40) 18% said there should be no penalty for the women. Generally speaking, they advocated harsher punishment for the physician. > > [http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/trumps-call-to-punish-women-who-have-abortions-is-way-outside-the-mainstream/](http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/trumps-call-to-punish-women-who-have-abortions-is-way-outside-the-mainstream/) > > [What Do Anti-Abortion Demonstrators Want (Besides An End To Abortion)? | FiveThirtyEight](http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-do-anti-abortion-demonstrators-want-besides-an-end-to-abortion/) Leah Libresco’s stuff is invariably super-smart, but her first post there actually suggests that punishing women who get abortions _along with other people_ (the doctor, and presumably anyone who paid for/encouraged the abortion) is not actually that much of a fringe position, about 30% of the people surveyed share it. I think abortion should be punished as a lesser crime than murder, for a variety of reasons, but I do think that everyone involved with it (the doctor, the mother, and anyone who financed or encouraged her to have the abortion) should face some legal punishment, unless there’s evidence she was coerced (and I have no doubt a lot of women are coerced). To do otherwise is to take all moral responsibility away from the woman involved. The reason the pro-life ‘movement’ (for which I don’t really have a lot of respect) doesn’t support laws of that kind is because Americans have inconsistent moral intuitions and don’t fully follow the logical imprlications of their principles, and tough anti-abortion laws that punished women who have abortions wouldn’t play in Peoria. ---
**Author:** ![spamforbrains](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@spamforbrains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spamforbrains)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2016, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-pro-life-why-shouldnt-women-be-punished-for-abortions/751098/52 "2016-04-09T03:07:24Z")
> [@](#): > > and I have no doubt a lot of women are coerced). To do otherwise is to take all moral responsibility away from the woman involved. why do you believe that women are coerced? and why do you believe there is any moral responsibility? Science tells us that fetuses aren’t babies until well into the third trimester. The Bible tells us that fetuses are property, not babies. The Bible tells us that “life begins when the baby begins to breath air.” Not everyone believes in the Bible, but in our country, we have laws against forcing odd religious beliefs on other people. Women have every right to decide what to do with their own uteruses. Therefore there is no moral responsibility for a woman deciding to empty her uterus during the first and second trimester. It is her right. I think your statement that women are “coerced” into having abortions is insulting. Women are perfectly capable of making decisions on their own about their own bodies, their reproductive futures, their possible and actual children, and their own medical decisions. Many women fight tooth and nail against parents, relatives, and sexual partners in order to get abortions that are right for them. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2016, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-pro-life-why-shouldnt-women-be-punished-for-abortions/751098/53 "2016-04-09T03:55:59Z")
If women are being coerced into having abortions, who is doing the coercion? The men who got the woman pregnant? The parents of pregnant teenagers? Do the pro-life advocates who feel women are victims feel these people should be arrested? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2016, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-pro-life-why-shouldnt-women-be-punished-for-abortions/751098/54 "2016-04-10T01:54:49Z")
Over in Northern Ireland, a young woman was given a 3 month suspended sentence for procuring drugs online to abort a fetus. She couldn’t raise funds for a trip to England, which is what is usually done. She was 19 at the time of the abortion. Such prosecutions are rare: [INDENT][INDENT]Before passing sentence, the judge said there were no guidelines or similar cases to compare this to, adding in his experience there have been no other prosecutions under this specific piece of legislation - namely Section 58 of the Offences Against the Person Act 1861. He said the legislation was 150 years old and had been substantially amended in England, Scotland and Wales but not in Northern Ireland. [/INDENT][/INDENT] I don’t have a good sense of how anti-abortion law works where it is practiced, so I thought I’d share this. > **[Woman who bought drugs online to terminate pregnancy given suspended sentence](https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-35962134)** > > A young woman who bought drugs on the internet to induce a miscarriage after failing to raise enough money to travel to England for a termination is given a suspended prison sentence. Hector\_St\_Clare: Nice closer reading - I didn’t look closely enough at the survey results. ---
**Author:** ![GulfTiger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e79b87/32.png) [@GulfTiger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GulfTiger)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2016, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-pro-life-why-shouldnt-women-be-punished-for-abortions/751098/55 "2016-04-10T02:23:28Z")
What is the point in making something a crime, if there is no punishment? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-are-pro-life-why-shouldnt-women-be-punished-for-abortions/751098.md?page=2)