# If you aren't doing anything illegal... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 30, 2006, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-arent-doing-anything-illegal/354874 "2006-04-30T21:28:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2006, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-arent-doing-anything-illegal/354874/81 "2006-05-02T20:23:50Z")
> [@Random](#): > > Is this a serious question? I suppose I’ll assume that it is, although from just about any other source, I’d suspect an attempted whoosh. Absolutely serious. > [@](#): > > In my experience, most people under the age of 50 who have any significant music collection would have such music, in one or more of the following forms even if they refuse to illegally obtain music: I am, in fact, under 50. > [@](#): > > 1. Casette tape (or burned CD) of vinyl album (for convenience to allow use in walkman or car stereo) No. I have a CD player in my car. I take CDs to my car to play them. > [@](#): > > 1. Party tape (or CD, or mp3) of music from several albums. No. I’m not much into mixing music. But so far as I understand, making such mixed tapes from media you already own is legal. 17 USC § 1008. > [@](#): > > 1. Music (legally obtained from purchased album or paid download) on computer hard drive or mp3 storage medium. No. I guess I’m pretty boring. I buy albums on CD, pop them in, and play them. But again, my understanding is that even if I wanted to do such a thing, it’s legal. And if I were to decide to explore my amateur DJ mixing abilities, I’d certainly have the original media at hand to show my legitimate ownership if the question ever arose. > [@](#): > > My bigger question, though, is one I asked you before: Do you accept that most people aren’t the careful record keeper and label reader that you seem to be? I’m sure that many people are not. But that wasn’t the question. The idea I objected to was that there were unknown laws, laws that could simply catch an innocent person unawares. In the case of mixed tapes, we’re not talking about a violation of the law. Even if you made a tape and then later lost the album, you’re not guilty of a crime. There is a problem of proof, yes, but the fact remains you’re not guilty. > [@](#): > > Also, do you accept that most people don’t have the legal knowledge that you and I may take for granted? Sure - but again, this is not relevant. You haven’t mentioned anything that would come as a surprise to an ordinarily observant person. People know they can’t pirate music. People know they can take their legitimately owned music and tape it. And they can. That case does nothing to illustrate the thesis that there are “gotcha” laws out there that can trap the innocent. > [@](#): > > Finally, even if we were all like you (in the legal care/knowledge areas), do you accept that, for most people, there are activities that they would rather not share with the government (or the public, or your church, or your employer), even if those activities are 100% legal? Of course. I don’t for a moment support unrestrained monitoring. I merely object to the idea that we are all criminals, because the law is so complicated and mysterious that everyone breaks it without even knowing they have. ---
**Author:** ![Lilairen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lilairen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lilairen)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2006, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-arent-doing-anything-illegal/354874/82 "2006-05-02T20:28:34Z")
> [@yelimS](#): > > I guess this is the wrong debate for me, it’s just that all I ever hear when people complain about increasing surveilance is their own private life, and I think they should have better things to worry about. My life is my first priority, personally; if that gets messed up, I lose the majority of my ability to do anything about anything else. I have to live with my life at all times. ---
**Author:** ![davenportavenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f8ce5/32.png) [@davenportavenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davenportavenger)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2006, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-arent-doing-anything-illegal/354874/83 "2006-05-02T20:29:59Z")
> [@yelimS](#): > > But to those who feel my idea of dignity is apathy: What dignity can you have if you’re not even proud of your own actions? And that’s my only point, too. That’s like saying that everyone should be compelled to wear transparent clothing or go naked, because anyone who doesn’t is ashamed of their body and has something to hide. Is there a reason why people need to keep their bodies covered? After all, some passing dermatologist could diagnose the pimple on your ass as cancer and provide a public service. And we’d know nobody is carrying bombs or guns under their clothing. There might be some totally enlightened people like you for whom that would not be an issue, but most people would be outraged. Should they just get over it? Besides, there are reasons why people like to have privacy. Pretty deep-seated biological ones, which we can’t easily overcome with logic. Nor, I think, should we. ---
**Author:** ![yelimS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/54ee81/32.png) [@yelimS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yelimS)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2006, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-arent-doing-anything-illegal/354874/84 "2006-05-02T21:09:10Z")
Why shouldn’t they get over it? Everybody should realize that they have the sole responsibility for their own well-being, and there’s no reason to care what anybody else thinks. Allright, I don’t go out naked (and wouldn’t even if I didn’t live in rather frosty Norway), but I can’t really give you a logical reason for why I shouldn’t. It really boils down to this: keep blaming it on everybody else and you’ll never be free. And I realize that telling people to mind their own problems is self-contradictory, but I trust straightdopers to be grown enough to skip my posts if they don’t like them. ---
**Author:** ![Sweet\_Mercury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@Sweet\_Mercury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweet_Mercury)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2006, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-arent-doing-anything-illegal/354874/85 "2006-05-02T21:30:13Z")
> [@yelimS](#): > > **Why shouldn’t they get over it? Everybody should realize that they have the sole responsibility for their own well-being,** and there’s no reason to care what anybody else thinks. Allright, I don’t go out naked (and wouldn’t even if I didn’t live in rather frosty Norway), but I can’t really give you a logical reason for why I shouldn’t. It really boils down to this: keep blaming it on everybody else and you’ll never be free. > And I realize that telling people to mind their own problems is self-contradictory, but I trust straightdopers to be grown enough to skip my posts if they don’t like them. But who are you to just decide that for other people? How can you appoint yourself the authority who decides what people should or should not be embarassed about? If people are responsible for their own lives, then why can’t they decide for themselves what parts of their private lives they wish to expose to people, and what parts they wish to remain private? And, just our of curiosity, how does “blaming it on everybody else” relate, at all, to the issue at hand? ---
**Author:** ![ouryL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ouryl/32/6067_2.png) [@ouryL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouryL)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2006, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-arent-doing-anything-illegal/354874/86 "2006-05-02T21:33:17Z")
Ooo! Can I have a spreadsheet of all your bank accounts and passwords!! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![yelimS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/54ee81/32.png) [@yelimS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yelimS)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2006, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-arent-doing-anything-illegal/354874/87 "2006-05-02T21:47:36Z")
Sweetest: That’s what I said, I realize the paradox. But understanding that I’m my own boss worked for me, I’m hoping it could work for you, too, so I’m telling. You don’t have to listen, and I don’t really care, I live my own life and I’m really only telling you what I think for my own sake, because I like to do so. The “Blaming it on everybody else” bit is, admittedly, a bit of topic, but don’t you see the connection between fearing what people who are not you think, and blaming your unhappiness on everybody else? I hope I don’t sound like a meditation teacher or anything, but I’d just hope more people stopped complaining about what everybody else does, and understand that happiness is a mental thing you can control all by yourself. And, I’m still realizing the paradox in what I’m saying, but it would be easier to be happy for me if everyone else were a bit less… tense. (And I hope giving my reason for not worrying about surveilance isn’t too far off topic) ---
**Author:** ![yelimS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/54ee81/32.png) [@yelimS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yelimS)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2006, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-arent-doing-anything-illegal/354874/88 "2006-05-02T21:49:04Z")
> [@ouryL](#): > > Ooo! > > Can I have a spreadsheet of all your bank accounts and passwords!! 😃 Why not! Just for the hell of it, imagine what wonderful fun it could have been! Or what wonderful fun I could have spending that money myself, on whiskey. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2006, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-arent-doing-anything-illegal/354874/89 "2006-05-02T22:02:47Z")
> [@yelimS](#): > > Why shouldn’t they get over it? Everybody should realize that they have the sole responsibility for their own well-being, and there’s no reason to care what anybody else thinks. Garbage. If somebody decides you’re gay and beats you to death, you’ll find out quickly ( but briefly ) that it _does_ matter what other people think. There are millions upon millions of people whose great preoccupation in life is to find an excuse to make other’s lives hellish, or short. I am an outspoken atheist on this board, but I almost never mention it in real life, because I don’t want some true believer caving in my skull with a crowbar. Or less dramatically, being harassed or having a loan application “accidentally” misfiled. Set up a system like this, and it won’t be long before your every private habit is available to everyone on the internet. Every fanatic and bigot who has a grudge will know exactly who to attack; every busybody who to harass. It would be hellish. Not to mention, we are _not_ “solely responsible” for our own well being; that’s the point of living in a society in the first place, instead of wandering the wilderness all alone. > [@yelimS](#): > > I hope I don’t sound like a meditation teacher or anything, but I’d just hope more people stopped complaining about what everybody else does, and understand that happiness is a mental thing you can control all by yourself. Only if you are both a sociopath _and_ a hermit. “No man is an island” and all that. > [@yelimS](#): > > Why not! Just for the hell of it, imagine what wonderful fun it could have been! > Or what wonderful fun I could have spending that money myself, on whiskey. You _do_ realize that he/she was making the point that a total lack of privacy will mean other people will be able to rob you blind, and you won’t _have_ any money, for whisky or anything else ? ---
**Author:** ![yelimS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/54ee81/32.png) [@yelimS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yelimS)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2006, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-arent-doing-anything-illegal/354874/90 "2006-05-02T22:17:17Z")
I suggest we keep from extremes, so as not to kill the discussion. Taken to an extreme, a lack of privacy COULD mean getting robbed blind or even killed, but I could just go all mystical on you and say forget your worldly worries and unite with cosmos. Somehow, I think that discussion belongs in another thread. Now, back to earth: What causes the most problems: One in a hundred/thousand/million getting robbed or beaten up, or the majority of people worrying about getting robbed and beaten up? And, even less extreme: what if someone finds out of your dirty little secrets, and laughs at you? Doesn’t it hurt only because you let it? Your feelings ARE part of your toughts, and you CAN control them. It’s not easy, and I’m not saying I’ve mastered it, I don’t even like being laughed at, but it doesn’t help blaming my problems on anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![yelimS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/54ee81/32.png) [@yelimS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yelimS)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2006, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-arent-doing-anything-illegal/354874/91 "2006-05-02T22:20:58Z")
By the way: I trust you realize I was joking about the whiskey. I do see the point of being robbed blind, but if all you can think of are the worst things that could happen with surveilance, I don’t think you’ll get anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2006, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-arent-doing-anything-illegal/354874/92 "2006-05-02T22:24:26Z")
> [@yelimS](#): > > I suggest we keep from extremes, so as not to kill the discussion. Taken to an extreme, a lack of privacy COULD mean getting robbed blind or even killed, but I could just go all mystical on you and say forget your worldly worries and unite with cosmos. The extreme, in this case, is what almost certainly _will_ happen. You might as well drop money on the ground and expect nobody will steal it. > [@yelimS](#): > > And, even less extreme: what if someone finds out of your dirty little secrets, and laughs at you? Doesn’t it hurt only because you let it? Your feelings ARE part of your toughts, and you CAN control them. No, we are not Vulcans, and we can’t do that. We can control our actions, but our emotional control is limited. Not to mention, self control won’t help you if you’re being beaten to death. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2006, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-arent-doing-anything-illegal/354874/93 "2006-05-02T22:26:57Z")
> [@yelimS](#): > > By the way: I trust you realize I was joking about the whiskey. I do see the point of being robbed blind, but if all you can think of are the worst things that could happen with surveilance, I don’t think you’ll get anywhere. “Assume the worst, hope for the best”. Planning for the worst case scenario is simply prudent; otherwise you have debacles like Iraq ( “They’ll throw flowers ! Really !” ), or the Katrina flood in New Orleans. ---
**Author:** ![yelimS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/54ee81/32.png) [@yelimS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yelimS)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2006, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-arent-doing-anything-illegal/354874/94 "2006-05-02T22:39:15Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > The extreme, in this case, is what almost certainly _will_ happen. You might as well drop money on the ground and expect nobody will steal it. Good thing then, when you’re **dead** , you’ve been careful so that noone’s taken your money. Why worry, when you’ll die anyway? Worrying’s not a particularily enjoyable feeling. Trust me, worrying doesn’t belong anywhere, and I can get extreme about this, more so than would be appreciated in a thread about surveilance. So! Back to privacy. I don’t mind, why do you? Hugs and kisses! ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2006, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-arent-doing-anything-illegal/354874/95 "2006-05-02T22:40:14Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > 4 : It would be a great tool for many forms of government abuse. I think that was the original point of the Fourth Amendment. What you did didn’t have to be illegal. If they didn’t like it, they harrassed you and put you in jail, especially if you were critical of the Crown. And the way they found out about it was by loyalist snitches–today they have the NSA. It may not seem like a big deal today, but at the time simple discussions could have life or death consequences. ---
**Author:** ![Ensign\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2006, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-arent-doing-anything-illegal/354874/96 "2006-05-02T22:41:01Z")
Bricker, if you did copy your legit CDs onto your computer, what would you do if one of the original CDs broke? Glue the pieces into a scrapbook in case your ownership was one day called into question? ---
**Author:** ![yelimS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/54ee81/32.png) [@yelimS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yelimS)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2006, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-arent-doing-anything-illegal/354874/97 "2006-05-02T22:44:17Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > “Assume the worst, hope for the best”. Planning for the worst case scenario is simply prudent; otherwise you have debacles like Iraq ( “They’ll throw flowers ! Really !” ), or the Katrina flood in New Orleans. Oh, sure, being naive has its drawbacks. The trick is not minding, and being ready to find sollutions whenever something bad does happen that you’re not able to forget. But always seeing what can go wrong in everything doesn’t quite fit in my scheme of “enjoying life”. I realize that enjoying life is childish and I should be building for a shallow grave, but I like it my way. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2006, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-arent-doing-anything-illegal/354874/98 "2006-05-02T22:46:48Z")
> [@yelimS](#): > > So! Back to privacy. I don’t mind, why do you? Hugs and kisses! You wouldn’t mind if the police routinely conducted suspiscionless searches of your home, automobile, and person, and tapped your telephone conversations? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2006, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-arent-doing-anything-illegal/354874/99 "2006-05-02T22:57:53Z")
Actually, Bricker, it’s only legal to make a mix tape or mix CD, as long as you circumvent no copy-protection schemes to produce it, as well as the aforementioned owning. If you happen to have a CD with an exceptionally poorly made version of DRM, make a mix tape from it, without being affected by the DRM, you have just broken the law. Yes, that is quite possible to do. Some DRM schemes were designed to prevent the CD being ripped by encoding noise. Some CD players happen to be well designed and CRC the noise out. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2006, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-arent-doing-anything-illegal/354874/100 "2006-05-02T23:07:56Z")
> [@yelimS](#): > > Good thing then, when you’re **dead** , you’ve been careful so that noone’s taken your money. Why worry, when you’ll die anyway? Worrying’s not a particularily enjoyable feeling. Neither is being beaten to death or raped or robbed or scammed or tossed into a gulag or watching your people be killed in a genocide. _Worrying_ about such things may help prevent them; covering your eyes and screaming “LALALALA I CAN’T HEAR YOU !” _won’t_. > [@yelimS](#): > > Trust me, worrying doesn’t belong anywhere, and I can get extreme about this, more so than would be appreciated in a thread about surveilance. > > So! Back to privacy. I don’t mind, why do you? Hugs and kisses! Because I don’t live in a fantasy world, which appears to be what you are advocating. For example : > [@yelimS](#): > > Oh, sure, being naive has its drawbacks. The trick is not minding, and being ready to find sollutions whenever something bad does happen that you’re not able to forget. “Not able to forget” ? Pretending things aren’t happen or didn’t happen won’t accomplish anything. You sound like someone who would think [Peril Sensitive Sunglasses](http://hhgproject.org/entries/perilsensitivesunglasses.html) are a good idea. > [@yelimS](#): > > But always seeing what can go wrong in everything doesn’t quite fit in my scheme of “enjoying life”. I realize that enjoying life is childish and I should be building for a shallow grave, but I like it my way. _Avoiding_ bad consequences is important to enjoying life, unless you want to rely on sheer luck. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-arent-doing-anything-illegal/354874.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-arent-doing-anything-illegal/354874.md?page=6)