# If you didn't hate Hallburton already... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 11, 2007, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-didnt-hate-hallburton-already/429617 "2007-12-11T15:47:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2007, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-didnt-hate-hallburton-already/429617/21 "2007-12-11T20:35:52Z")
[QUOTE=Shirley Ujest] What is with the picture of her? I thought rape victims were suppose to have some kind of protection from publicity. [/QUOTE] No, they don’t. Most publications and television stations won’t run a picture of a rape victim as a matter of policy. If the victim wants pictures of her to run, though, they will. The shipping container part has already been established as misleading. However, if there are armed men prohibiting me from leaving one, I would not consider it “my protection” no metter how well-appointed it was. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2007, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-didnt-hate-hallburton-already/429617/22 "2007-12-11T20:43:13Z")
[At least 40 women killed for violating Islamic dress code](http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/342902_womenkilled10.html) > [@](#): > > Religious vigilantes have killed at least 40 women this year in the southern Iraqi city of Basra because of how they dressed, their mutilated bodies found with notes warning against “violating Islamic teachings,” the police chief said Sunday. > > Maj. Gen. Jalil Khalaf blamed sectarian groups that he said were trying to impose a strict interpretation of Islam. They dispatch patrols of motorbikes or unlicensed cars with tinted windows to accost women not wearing traditional dress and head scarves, he added. > > “The women of Basra are being horrifically murdered and then dumped in the garbage with notes saying they were killed for un-Islamic behavior,” Khalaf said. He said men with Western clothes or haircuts are also attacked in Basra, 30 miles from the Iranian border and 340 miles southeast of Baghdad. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2007, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-didnt-hate-hallburton-already/429617/23 "2007-12-11T20:43:25Z")
If she was in the Green Zone, did she really need the “protection” of being locked under guard whether she liked it or not? Congressman Poe seems fairly certain that he sent State Department workers from the embassy to ‘rescue’ her so I can believe that she was not being allowed to leave at her own will. In any event, even if the entire incident were made up, the real story seems to be a situation in which accusations of violent crimes by US subcontracted workers are not pursued and that even a US Congressman can’t find answers for how this accused crime is being handled by either KBR or the government. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2007, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-didnt-hate-hallburton-already/429617/24 "2007-12-11T20:45:05Z")
The guards also refused to bring her food and water. Why would they do that if they were “protecting” her? Her allegations appear to be supported by bothe the army and the State Department and I haven’t seen any substantive denials from Halliburton or KBR, only attempts to keep as much information out of the public record as possible. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2007, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-didnt-hate-hallburton-already/429617/25 "2007-12-11T20:52:05Z")
When I call those guys ‘fuckers’ I didn’t mean it literally. ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2007, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-didnt-hate-hallburton-already/429617/26 "2007-12-11T20:52:53Z")
[QUOTE=Ghanima] I can’t help but be reminded of the Duke LaCrosse team rape accusations and how easy it was to join the lynch mob. [/QUOTE] Well, hopefully the truth will come out during the trial. Oh, wait, that’s right. There’ll _be_ no trial. Because the alleged perpetrators are special people, hired by a special company, and they have been put outside the reach of the law because it was politically convenient. If that doesn’t piss you off, it should. ---
**Author:** ![TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/51bf81/32.png) [@TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2007, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-didnt-hate-hallburton-already/429617/27 "2007-12-11T20:53:43Z")
I can’t wait for the feminists to come take a miami-sized dogshit on this thread, because this seems like a classic case of “blame the victim.” However, my immediate reaction was, “wait, wouldn’t that make her like 19 or 20 when she was over there!? Huh?” I really don’t envision a mega-corp like Haliburton hiring people with GED’s to head into a war zone… ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2007, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-didnt-hate-hallburton-already/429617/28 "2007-12-11T20:55:30Z")
[QUOTE=Shirley Ujest] My bullshit meter went off when I read the initial article and it was just over this woman (being now 22) and working in Iraq for Halliburton…Doesn’t ( 20-21) that seem a bit young? What is her capacity there? [/QUOTE] No, actually it isn’t. Inside the Green Zone there are a large number of workers in their early-to-mid twenties, including administrative personnel, office temp workers, and political staffers with school or family connections to the Bush Administration. Concern over personal security and theft, even inside the Green Zone, is a real issue, and the amount of criminal activity and graft is…well, actually unsurprising, really. If Graham Green were alive today, he could easily substitute Baghdad for Vienna in his screenplay for _The Third Man_, except he’d have to replace the multinational interests with corporate ones. For a basic if somewhat limited description of life in the Green Zone under the first year of Cccupation, try reading Rajiv Chandrasekaran’s [_Imperial Life in the Emerald City: Inside Iraq’s Green Zone_](http://www.amazon.com/Imperial-Life-Emerald-City-Inside/dp/1400044871). Far from being a zestful attack on the Bush Administration or a defense of Saddam Hussein regime (he spends considerable time investigating how Hussein’s rein, particularly in the post-Iran-Iraq war and post-Gulf War environment, bankrupted the country and encouraged corruption) it is a thoughtful exposition about the well-meaning but often naive attempts of many people to introduce the fundamentals of modern democratic government, financial and banking systems, and education into post-invasion Iraq, only to be foiled by a lack of political and logistical support, pledged funding, internecine struggles between the State Department, the military, and the Bush Administration-appointed interim Coalition Provisional Authority, and a lack of unity and security among the initially welcoming populace, exacerbated by the crumbling infrastructure of Baghdad under Hussein’s later rule. Anybody who thinks that the problems there are easily manageable, or that the situation is or was ever under control will be in for a surprise. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2007, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-didnt-hate-hallburton-already/429617/29 "2007-12-11T20:58:06Z")
I find it easier to envision a 19 year old woman working for KBR in Iraq than to envision the State Department not calling up Congressman Poe and asking him what drugs he was on when he sent them to rescue an imaginary woman. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2007, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-didnt-hate-hallburton-already/429617/30 "2007-12-11T21:03:40Z")
[QUOTE=Squink] [At least 40 women killed for violating Islamic dress code](http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/342902_womenkilled10.html) [/QUOTE] In Basra. Nowhere near The Green Zone. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2007, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-didnt-hate-hallburton-already/429617/31 "2007-12-11T21:03:47Z")
[QUOTE=Stranger On A Train] the defendants and their employer in this situation have lawyered up and blocked attempts to investigate and have insisted on enforcement of an arbitration agreement rather than full disclosure and presentation of accused perpetrators to applicable law. [/QUOTE] I agree with all you say, except this. Enforcing an arbitration agreement is pretty standard in employment litigation. In fact, in her opposition to the motion to compel arbitration she says: 1. There is an arbitration clause in her employment contract. 2. She demanded, and is apparently pursuing, arbitration for some of her claims. She raises a lot of arguments in the Opposition, some possibly winners (the arbitration clause wasn’t in the contract when she signed it, fraud in the inducement, some of the claims aren’t covered by the clause) and some non-starters (sometimes they don’t enforce the arbitration agreement, unconscionability, breach of _quid pro quo_). But that doesn’t mean the defendants are sleazy just because they raised the issue. Don’t get me wrong. I think they’re sleazy for a lot of other reasons. And immunity from prosecution is simply unacceptable. ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2007, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-didnt-hate-hallburton-already/429617/32 "2007-12-11T21:28:04Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] Given the religion of the place I expect the appropriate punishment would be 200 lashes. On her. [/QUOTE] That’s a really asinine statement to make given that Saudi Arabia isn’t Iraq and this is clearly an example of how a Western secular society is perfectly capable of failing to adequately protect rape victims in the same manner that Saudi Arabia screwed up in sentencing that woman to 200 lashes. You’ve made a bigoted ass of yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2007, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-didnt-hate-hallburton-already/429617/33 "2007-12-11T21:34:37Z")
[QUOTE=Gfactor] I agree with all you say, except this. Enforcing an arbitration agreement is pretty standard in employment litigation. In fact, in her opposition to the motion to compel arbitration she says: [/QUOTE] Agreed. However, no contractual arbitration or exclusionary clause can be construed to require compliance in the situation of a violation of criminal statutes. The loophole is, as you note, that KBR and its employees and assignees have been decreed as immune from prosecution, although I question that this should really be the case; it might be extralegal in the case of violations by American contractors against Iraqis in Iraq, but it seems to me that American federal statutes and possibly the criminal codes of the state in which the company is headquartered would still apply to violations of American citizens by employees and assignees of the corporation in question. The loss of evidence while (allegedly) in possession by the contractor is disturbing. The stonewalling off accused persons and their employer is doubly so. We don’t know–and given loss of evidence we probably can’t know–whether the alleged crimes were actually committed, but the behavior of KBR and Halliburton certainly does nothing to dispell the notion or undermine the allegations. And given demonstrated violations of human and civil rights by this contractor and others, it hardly comes away as exaggerated or unbelievable. The claims that her story and indeed verifiable presence in Iraq at the time of the alleged event are patently “bullshit” due to her age are absurd to the point of offensiveness. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2007, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-didnt-hate-hallburton-already/429617/34 "2007-12-11T21:54:16Z")
If she had been an IBM employee in Germany, and she was raped by other Americans, also employees of IBM in Germany, what would be her legal recourse in the US? If what she says is true, it was indeed a tragedy and the perps are scum. But I don’t see how US courts would have jurisdiction over this. Do we “own” the Green Zone? The fact that these guys are immune from prosecution in Iraq is the problem. But then, how many would agree to go over there if they weren’t immune? It’s dangerous enough over they without having to worry about violating some Islamic code or another. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2007, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-didnt-hate-hallburton-already/429617/35 "2007-12-11T21:57:05Z")
[QUOTE=Squink] [At least 40 women killed for violating Islamic dress code](http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/342902_womenkilled10.html) [/QUOTE] I’m still waiting for a cite on people being killed for _flashing a little ankle_. Do you know that the “at least 40 women” were killed to the last for flashing a little ankle? Or do you suppose there are lots of violations of Islamic dress code and your source made no specific mention of what ones lead to the murders. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2007, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-didnt-hate-hallburton-already/429617/36 "2007-12-11T22:07:07Z")
Those are also vigilante murders, not state executions. The Iraqi government is not killing women for flashing their ankles. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2007, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-didnt-hate-hallburton-already/429617/37 "2007-12-11T22:12:42Z")
Seems like a good time to remember one of Bush’s shining moments. April 10, 2006: > [@](#): > > QUESTION: I’m a first year student in South Asian studies. > > My question is in regards to private military contractors. The Uniform Code of Military Justice does not apply to these contractors in Iraq. I asked your secretary of defense a couple months ago what law governs their actions. Mr. Rumsfeld. > > BUSH: I was going to ask him. Go ahead. > > (LAUGHTER) > > BUSH: Help! > > QUESTION: I was hoping your answer might be a little more specific. Mr. Rumsfeld answered that Iraq has its own domestic laws which he assumed applied to those private military contractors. However, Iraq is clearly not currently capable of enforcing its laws, much less against, you know, over our American military contractors. I would submit to you that in this case, this is one case that privatization is not a solution. > > Mr. President, how do you propose to bring private military contractors under a system of law? > > BUSH: Yes. I appreciate that very much. > > I wasn’t kidding. I was – I’ll pick up the phone and say, “Mr. Secretary, I’ve got an interesting question.” > > This is what delegation – I don’t mean to be dodging the question, although it’s kind of convenient in this case, but – I really will. I’m going to call the secretary and say you’ve brought up a very valid question, and what are we doing about it? That’s how I work. > > I’m – thanks. Video clip here: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD7BDP3XMG0](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD7BDP3XMG0) ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2007, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-didnt-hate-hallburton-already/429617/38 "2007-12-11T22:14:14Z")
Yup, we can ignore corporate sponsored rape rooms because the folks killing women aren’t doing it for ‘flashing a little ankle’, and they aren’t from the government anyway. 🙂 Good points, all! ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2007, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-didnt-hate-hallburton-already/429617/39 "2007-12-11T22:17:06Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] But I don’t see how US courts would have jurisdiction over this. Do we “own” the Green Zone? The fact that these guys are immune from prosecution in Iraq is the problem. [/QUOTE] I’m a little confused as to what the immunity entails, as well. I know the federal government does have jurisdiction over the crimes its contractors commit overseas as illustrated by this case: [C.I.A. Contractor Guilty in Beating of Afghan](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/18/washington/18detain.html). Mr. Pasarro was tried by a federal criminal court in Kentucky for crimes he committed in Afghanistan. Who was the micro-cephalic genius who thought up giving KBR immunity from criminal prosecution? How far does that immunity stretch? Is the immunity even legal? ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2007, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-didnt-hate-hallburton-already/429617/40 "2007-12-11T23:01:04Z")
[QUOTE=Stranger On A Train] Agreed. However, no contractual arbitration or exclusionary clause can be construed to require compliance in the situation of a violation of criminal statutes. The loophole is, as you note, that KBR and its employees and assignees have been decreed as immune from prosecution, although I question that this should really be the case; it might be extralegal in the case of violations by American contractors against Iraqis in Iraq, but it seems to me that American federal statutes and possibly the criminal codes of the state in which the company is headquartered would still apply to violations of American citizens by employees and assignees of the corporation in question. [/QUOTE] I don’t think it’s as clear-cut as some make it out to be. I cited all sorts of discussions about the issue in the previous thread that I linked. But we’re talking about apples and oranges. You are correct that criminal prosecutions aren’t subject to arbitration clauses. Depending on how the arbitration clause is drafted, courts sometimes do compel arbitration of intentional torts. _E.g._ [http://ds.columbuslawlib.org:8080/docushare/dsweb/Get/Document-3965/04-1239.pdf](http://ds.columbuslawlib.org:8080/docushare/dsweb/Get/Document-3965/04-1239.pdf) ; [http://vls.law.villanova.edu/locator/3d/June2007/064751np.pdf](http://vls.law.villanova.edu/locator/3d/June2007/064751np.pdf) ; _but see_, [http://www.shrm.org/hrmagazine/articles/0803/0803gutterman.asp](http://www.shrm.org/hrmagazine/articles/0803/0803gutterman.asp) > [@](#): > > The loss of evidence while (allegedly) in possession by the contractor is disturbing. Yes, and I certainly hope that Jones gets the benefit of the spoliation inference. [http://www.evestigate.com/spoilation%20case%20law.htm](http://www.evestigate.com/spoilation%20case%20law.htm) > [@](#): > > The stonewalling off accused persons and their employer is doubly so. I agree. Although their immunity from prosecution robs them of a key means to continue the stonewalling. They can’t invoke the Fifth Amendment. > [@](#): > > We don’t know–and given loss of evidence we probably can’t know–whether the alleged crimes were actually committed, but the behavior of KBR and Halliburton certainly does nothing to dispell the notion or undermine the allegations. Which is why I think the spoliation inference is quite appropriate here. > [@](#): > > And given demonstrated violations of human and civil rights by this contractor and others, it hardly comes away as exaggerated or unbelievable. Agreed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-didnt-hate-hallburton-already/429617.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-didnt-hate-hallburton-already/429617.md?page=3)