# If you didn't hate Hallburton already... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 11, 2007, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-didnt-hate-hallburton-already/429617 "2007-12-11T15:47:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-didnt-hate-hallburton-already/429617/61 "2007-12-14T16:51:35Z")
[QUOTE=Steve MB] Evasion through literal interpretation of an obviously figurative phrase (“flashing a little ankle”) and an apologia for depraved barbarians, all in three sentences. How very efficient of you. [/QUOTE] [Honor killing of rape victims in Iraq](http://www.counterpunch.org/susskind05172007.html) > [@](#): > > In October 2004, Iraq’s Ministry of Women’s Affairs revealed that more than half of the 400 rapes reported since the US invasion resulted in the murder of rape survivors by their families. Apologists can get back to me when the Halliburton victim is murdered by her family. Depraved barbarians indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-didnt-hate-hallburton-already/429617/62 "2007-12-14T17:02:24Z")
Could someone please explain what the topic of Muslim societies attitudes towards women has to do with the story in the OP? The OP was about the (alleged) rape of an American woman by American men in an American compound and (again, allegedly) covered up by an American company. What does Islam have to do with any of this? It’s a complete non-sequitor. “Michael Vick was convicted of dog fighting.” “Well, in France the snail is considered a delicacy. So there!” ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-didnt-hate-hallburton-already/429617/63 "2007-12-14T17:11:28Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] [Honor killing of rape victims in Iraq](http://www.counterpunch.org/susskind05172007.html) Apologists can get back to me when the Halliburton victim is murdered by her family. Depraved barbarians indeed. [/QUOTE] Umm, you do realize that an honor killing is performed by someone who is related to the victim, right? So the idea that she was being protected by the armed guards from those evil Basra fundies is even more absurd than it was when you first posted it. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-didnt-hate-hallburton-already/429617/64 "2007-12-14T17:24:00Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] Nothing against threemae but I’m sick and fucking tired of apologists for the vile things followers do in the name of this vile religion. [/QUOTE] This thread had nothing to _do_ with followers of any religion, vile or otherwise, until you came in here and started waving your willy about. Fucking hell, mate, find a new schtick. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-didnt-hate-hallburton-already/429617/65 "2007-12-14T17:58:48Z")
[QUOTE=Larry Borgia] Could someone please explain what the topic of Muslim societies attitudes towards women has to do with the story in the OP? [/QUOTE] **Tagos** may have tried to start the highjack, but his transparent dickishness was being ignored. It really started around post 14 with an offhand comment by **Ghanima**. It went like this: > [@Ghanima](#): > > I’m not saying the story is entirely made up. I don’t know. I am willing to bet that there are major revisions to be made, though. For example, perhaps she was “locked up” for her own protection - this is a country where you can be stoned to death for flashing a little ankle. I just think there’s more to the story. I can’t help but be reminded of the Duke LaCrosse team rape accusations and how easy it was to join the lynch mob. And then **Diogenes the Cynic** , that bastion of perspective and good humor who always fights the good ultra-liberal fight kicked off the highjack by insisting that “flashing a little ankle” be taken literally and asked for a cite. How’s he going to find a cite for an exaggeration? And of course all Hell broke loose. The sad thing is, **Ghanima’s** original comment was on topic and it was the apologists, who could find some form of discrimination or insensitivity in a 12 oz bag of Cheetos, who derailed the thing. I think we can add the Islamic treatment of women to the list of things guaranteed to highjack a thread. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-didnt-hate-hallburton-already/429617/66 "2007-12-14T18:18:55Z")
[QUOTE=A Monkey With a Gun] And then **Diogenes the Cynic** , that bastion of perspective and good humor who always fights the good ultra-liberal fight kicked off the highjack by insisting that “flashing a little ankle” be taken literally and asked for a cite. How’s he going to find a cite for an exaggeration? And of course all Hell broke loose. [/QUOTE] It wasn’t my intent to be that literal. I just wanted a cite that women in Iraq were being executed by the state for alleged crimes of sexual iniquity, _ala_ Saudi Arabia (my impression was that **Ghanima** was alleging that the stonings were state sanctioned). Of course I didn’t take the “flashing of the ankle,” phrase literally. Your statement that I “insisted on” taking it literally is a total falsehood. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-didnt-hate-hallburton-already/429617/67 "2007-12-14T18:58:08Z")
[QUOTE=A Monkey With a Gun] I think we can add the Islamic treatment of women to the list of things guaranteed to highjack a thread. [/QUOTE] There really should be a term for that. In this case, I can’t quite understand how keeping her under lock and key in the Green Zone could be ‘for her own good’ (and apologize for making it seem like the quarters, and not her treatment there e.g. no food or water, was the punishment. I have no idea how she was living prior to her brief incarceration). Were they expecting her to run naked all the way to Baghdad airport, or to simply contact family back home, international reporters and/or American soldiers? ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-didnt-hate-hallburton-already/429617/68 "2007-12-14T19:42:09Z")
[QUOTE=A Monkey With a Gun] **Tagos** may have tried to start the highjack, but his transparent dickishness was being ignored. It really started around post 14 with an offhand comment by **Ghanima**. It went like this: And then **Diogenes the Cynic** , that bastion of perspective and good humor who always fights the good ultra-liberal fight kicked off the highjack by insisting that “flashing a little ankle” be taken literally and asked for a cite. How’s he going to find a cite for an exaggeration? And of course all Hell broke loose. The sad thing is, **Ghanima’s** original comment was on topic and it was the apologists, who could find some form of discrimination or insensitivity in a 12 oz bag of Cheetos, who derailed the thing. I think we can add the Islamic treatment of women to the list of things guaranteed to highjack a thread. [/QUOTE] And there’s the fact that the incidents took place in Basra. If there are muslim men in Basra hitting people in the Green Zone with stones, we need to get them out of there and signed with the Mets. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-didnt-hate-hallburton-already/429617/69 "2007-12-14T19:46:40Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] I’d be interested in seeing a cite for that as well. Iraq was a lot of things under Saddam, a lot of bad things, sure–but one thing it wasn’t was a fundamentalist Muslim country where women got stoned to death for flashing a little bit of ankle. Since we’ve taken over (for better or worse) while things have definitely changed, Iraq still isn’t a place (to my knowledge) where you’re remotely likely to be stoned to death for showing “a little bit of ankle.” I know Saudi Arabia and Iraq are neighboring Arab countries, but they aren’t the _same_ country (and for that matter, to my knowledge even S.A. doesn’t stone women to death for showing a little bit of ankle, but maybe I’m wrong.) [/QUOTE] Half the university students were women when Saddam was around. Many women wore western style clothes and had jobs. You are thinking of Afghanistan . We are turning Iraq into that. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-didnt-hate-hallburton-already/429617/70 "2007-12-14T19:48:25Z")
[QUOTE=Cat Fight] I can’t quite understand how keeping her under lock and key in the Green Zone could be ‘for her own good’ [/QUOTE] Neither can I, to be honest. Maybe to isolate her from her alleged Green Zone attackers, but the no food or water thing doesn’t jibe with that. **Ghanima** was just riffing. His main point still holds, though. All we have to go on is her allegations. We don’t really know if she _was_ locked up. The rape kit was “lost”. Obviously disturbing if true, but we don’t really know if there ever was a rape kit. We can’t, because all we have is her story. There was never an investigation. Which brings me to the reason why I’m supremely pissed off regarding this incident. I don’t know if she was raped or is just making shit up. And I never will. Because of the God Damn immunity rules that KBR operates under, none of us will ever know what happened that day in the Green Zone. Like **Ghanima** , I hesitate to pick up the pitch forks before I have a few more facts, but I’m infuriated because precious few facts are going to surface in this case. There is no excuse for sticking with a policy that will prevent investigation of an allegation of this magnitude. Congress needs to address this issue NOW. We can only hope something will shake loose in the civil case. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_fight\_the\_hypothetical](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/59ef9b/32.png) [@Don\_t\_fight\_the\_hypothetical](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_fight_the_hypothetical)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-didnt-hate-hallburton-already/429617/71 "2007-12-14T20:03:17Z")
Yeah, but but but Clinton got a blowjob, I hear. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2007, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-didnt-hate-hallburton-already/429617/72 "2007-12-16T17:08:28Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] I just wanted a cite that women in Iraq were being executed **by the state** for alleged crimes of sexual iniquity [/QUOTE] Sorry, you don’t get to add extra qualifiers to exclude examples that clearly fall within the initially stated assertion (“this is a country where you can be stoned to death for flashing a little ankle”). ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2007, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-didnt-hate-hallburton-already/429617/73 "2007-12-16T17:12:24Z")
[QUOTE=A Monkey With a Gun] I don’t know if she was raped or is just making shit up. And I never will. Because of the God Damn immunity rules that KBR operates under, none of us will ever know what happened that day in the Green Zone. [/QUOTE] IMO, it’s reasonable for the court of public opinion to presume guilt when an institution attempts (successfully or otherwise) to hold itself above the rule of law. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2007, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-didnt-hate-hallburton-already/429617/74 "2007-12-16T21:29:43Z")
This is the part that kills me: > [@](#): > > Apparently she was locked in a shipping container, told she’d be out of a job if she reported the incident, That was in the second paragraph in the CNN story too. Is this an effective part of the threat?? Does she _want_ to go on working for this company after this incident?? They only thing that makes sense out her staying there is that she would then be close enough to kill them. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2007, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-didnt-hate-hallburton-already/429617/75 "2007-12-16T21:50:42Z")
Sorry if I spoil your fun by adding some facts. [Contractors can be prosecuted under UCMJ.](http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2007/01/dfn.ucmjcontractors070105/) ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2007, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-didnt-hate-hallburton-already/429617/76 "2007-12-16T22:17:51Z")
[QUOTE=Steve MB] IMO, it’s reasonable for the court of public opinion to presume guilt when an institution attempts (successfully or otherwise) to hold itself above the rule of law.. [/QUOTE] That’s bullshit. Do I really have to explain why “presume guilt” is wrong? I don’t know if you have some political ax to grind, but I’m _presuming_ your _guilty_ of being a radical that has fantasies of bombing the White House. Is that a safe presumption? Of course it’s not. Don’t assume or presume Jack Shit. Hasn’t this board taught you _anything_ about critical thinking? ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2007, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-didnt-hate-hallburton-already/429617/77 "2007-12-16T23:19:30Z")
[QUOTE=Loach] Sorry if I spoil your fun by adding some facts. [Contractors can be prosecuted under UCMJ.](http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2007/01/dfn.ucmjcontractors070105/) [/QUOTE] > [@](#): > > The UCMJ was revised as of January 1, 2007, to allow military jurisdiction “\*n time of declared war or a contingency operation” over persons “serving with or accompanying an armed force in the field.”On September 25, 2007, Deputy Secretary of Defense Gordon England issued a directive to senior officers in the Pentagon, reminding them that all DOD contractors are subject to UCMJ jurisdiction and encouraging them to begin legal proceedings against those that have violated military law. > > But the prosecution of civilian contractors under the UCMJ will likely be subject to challenge on constitutional grounds. The Supreme Court in Reid v. Covert (354 U.S. 1) (1957) and several others cases has held that the Constitution prohibits the prosecution of civilians by courts-martial because it would violate the right to a fair trial, including trial by jury. > > Even if the Supreme Court were to uphold courts-martial of certain civilians, the impact on contractors abroad is unclear. Courts have generally adopted a narrow definition of the phrase “serving with or accompanying” the armed forces to require a direct connection with the activity of the armed forces. As a result it is unlikely that UCMJ jurisdiction could ever be asserted over non-DOD contractors. Moreover, the statute only extends UCMJ jurisdiction over those “in the field” – a term which also has been narrowly interpreted to include areas of actual fighting or where “actual hostilities” are underway. [Q&A: Private Military Contractors and the Law | Human Rights Watch](http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2004/05/05/iraq8547.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2007, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-didnt-hate-hallburton-already/429617/78 "2007-12-17T00:55:29Z")
[QUOTE=Gfactor] > **[Q&A: Private Military Contractors and the Law](https://www.hrw.org/news/2004/05/05/qa-private-military-contractors-and-law)** > > Private contractors (also known as private military or security contractors) provide a range of services for and on behalf of the US armed forces in Iraq and Afghanistan. [/QUOTE] Yep no political ax to grind there. I am probably the Doper who has most recently been briefed by Army JAG on the use of UCMJ overseas. It was two weeks ago. When was yours? Since nothing exists around here unless it is on the internet I picked the first cite which popped up. I assure you the US military is operating under the law that states contractors can be prosecuted under UCMJ. How the Supreme Court would rule on that, who knows. But that is the question with any law which has yet to be challenged. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2007, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-didnt-hate-hallburton-already/429617/79 "2007-12-17T03:17:05Z")
I’m fine with seeing the cases tried wherever they can be tried. 😃 But I know a bit about constitutional law, and I think there are some issues with the amendment. Some of the links I posted upthread discuss some of the issues. I all for giving it the college try, if we actually do, but I’d hate for UCMJ jurisdiction to prevent attempts to extend jurisdiction by methods with better constitutional pedigrees. The amendment came into force 1/1/2007, so let me ask some follow-up questions: 1. The case that the OP is about is from 2005. Are they planning on applying it to offenses committed before its effective date? Which ones? 2. How many contractors court-martialed since 1/1/07? Here, btw, is the September 25, 2007 memo that was mentioned in the previous quote: [http://www.aschq.army.mil/gc/files/DepSecDef%20Memo%20Mgt%20of%20Contractors%2025Sep07.pdf](http://www.aschq.army.mil/gc/files/DepSecDef%20Memo%20Mgt%20of%20Contractors%2025Sep07.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2007, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-didnt-hate-hallburton-already/429617/80 "2007-12-17T04:23:01Z")
[QUOTE=Gfactor] I’m fine with seeing the cases tried wherever they can be tried. 😃 But I know a bit about constitutional law, and I think there are some issues with the amendment. Some of the links I posted upthread discuss some of the issues. I all for giving it the college try, if we actually do, but I’d hate for UCMJ jurisdiction to prevent attempts to extend jurisdiction by methods with better constitutional pedigrees. The amendment came into force 1/1/2007, so let me ask some follow-up questions: 1. The case that the OP is about is from 2005. Are they planning on applying it to offenses committed before its effective date? Which ones? 2. How many contractors court-martialed since 1/1/07? Here, btw, is the September 25, 2007 memo that was mentioned in the previous quote: [http://www.aschq.army.mil/gc/files/DepSecDef%20Memo%20Mgt%20of%20Contractors%2025Sep07.pdf](http://www.aschq.army.mil/gc/files/DepSecDef%20Memo%20Mgt%20of%20Contractors%2025Sep07.pdf) [/QUOTE] 1. Don’t know and 2. Don’t know The briefings I got had more to do with what we need to know when we get there, not what might have been the rules in the past. I agree there should be some place to try those who commited a crime while in the employ of the US in Iraq. There is a very good reason why there is immunity from local prosecution. Do you think it would be a good idea to give someone like Muqtada al-Sadr jurisdiction over those working for us? It would be used as a tool for those in power with an ax to grind. They can’t get at the soldiers under local laws so they would go after contractors. Trying someone under US civilian law would not be feasible due to the jusidictional problems. That and the fact that many of those hired by these companies are not US citizens. UCMJ is a good fit I think. Not sure if SCOTUS will agree. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-didnt-hate-hallburton-already/429617.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-didnt-hate-hallburton-already/429617.md?page=5)