# If you don't believe in a law, do you have to follow it. (Thoughts please) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 30, 2003, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-a-law-do-you-have-to-follow-it-thoughts-please/216071 "2003-11-30T16:25:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![lel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8797f3/32.png) [@lel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lel)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-a-law-do-you-have-to-follow-it-thoughts-please/216071/21 "2003-11-30T22:28:21Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Siege_ > So, SnoopyFan, let me get this straight. You support not covering birth control and making abortion illegal. Lest my above statement be misconstrued, she isn’t the only one who supports not covering contraceptives in an employee health plan in this instance. I’m not sure the whole abortion thing is relevant to this, but I just want to make sure that my statement is not taken as being in favor of requiring Catholic Charities to provide contraceptives as part of an employee health plan. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-a-law-do-you-have-to-follow-it-thoughts-please/216071/22 "2003-11-30T23:38:55Z")
> [@](#): > > Providing comprehensive health care coverage is the responsibility of large-scale employers throughout this country. If an organization isn’t prepared to do so in a way that recognizes that they are not responsible for nor are they capable of making medical decisions for their employees, they need to reconsider their role as business owners in this country. As far as I know, an employer in NYS has no legal responsibility to provide a health insurance plan at all, much less one which covers prescription drugs. Have those who are against the exemption considered that Catholic Charities could avoid paying for the pill by discontinuing prescription drug coverage altogether? ---
**Author:** ![SnoopyFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d07c76/32.png) [@SnoopyFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnoopyFan)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-a-law-do-you-have-to-follow-it-thoughts-please/216071/23 "2003-12-01T04:17:48Z")
**Providing comprehensive health care coverage is the responsibility of large-scale employers throughout this country.** On what planet? I know way more people who have decent paying jobs who don’t get any benefits at all than those I know with really killer health insurance. **Have those who are against the exemption considered that Catholic Charities could avoid paying for the pill by discontinuing prescription drug coverage altogether?** That’s a really good point, **doreen**. If they are _that_ opposed to birth control, that’s exactly what they should do if they’re going to be true to their beliefs. Those who are opposing Catholic Charities are creating a lose-lose situation for everyone involved. ---
**Author:** ![lel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8797f3/32.png) [@lel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lel)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-a-law-do-you-have-to-follow-it-thoughts-please/216071/24 "2003-12-01T04:37:24Z")
While it is a solution to not provide health insurance at all, above a certain job level, they’re going to have trouble finding competent employees who will accept jobs without healthcare benefits, even if they are committed to the cause. The solution sounds wonderful, but IMO it’s unlikely to work well in practice. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-a-law-do-you-have-to-follow-it-thoughts-please/216071/25 "2003-12-01T04:43:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lel \* > \*\*If they believe that contraceptive use is sinful and thus damages a user’s relationship with God, why should they be required to fund it? Just because the government sees contraceptive funding as a good thing, it doesn’t mean that churches with a genuine religious exemption should be made to fund something which they believe to endanger one’s eternal well-being. > > On the other hand, things don’t look promising for Catholic Charities. \*\* In this country, we don’t always allow religions to do what they consider to be proper to keep their relationship with their god optimal. For instance, we don’t allow marriages of more than two people, despite the fact that some religions consider having multiple wives one of God’s commandments. We don’t allow honor killings. We decide what is best for the whole society, and we require religions to make some compromises with our society. I’d really rather not live in a society where a religion makes all the rules that EVERYONE has to live by, whether they are followers of that religion or not. We also disallow certain cultural traditions, because we believe that they are detrimental to society as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-a-law-do-you-have-to-follow-it-thoughts-please/216071/26 "2003-12-01T04:53:06Z")
Something from the link that bothers me is the misuse of the word “right” > [@](#): > > At issue is a collision of the right of a religion to practice what it preaches and the newly acquired rights of thousands of women employed by church-affiliated groups to be insured for contraceptives The **right** to be insured for contraceptives? A long time ago a middle school teacher, I think it was, said something about rights that I totally agree with. Rights are something that don’t require anything from anybody else. For example, my right to free speach doesn’t require anybody to listen. Freedom of the press doesn’t require anybody to buy newspapers, listen to the radio or watch TV, and so on. To say that woman have the **right** be have contraception covered is a joke becasue that right requires insurance companies to cover the cost. But yes, I know that the reality is, untill the Supreme Court decision is reached, then, unless there’s an injunction, Catholic Charities has to cover the cost of birth control. Now as for not following a law you don’t believe in, there are some cases where I agree. For example, pretend that here in America we went back in time to when slavery was legal and the Fugative Slave Act was in force. I wouldn’t follow it. If any escape slaves came to me to hide, I would glady hide them. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-a-law-do-you-have-to-follow-it-thoughts-please/216071/27 "2003-12-01T04:57:16Z")
> [@](#): > > While it is a solution to not provide health insurance at all, above a certain job level, they’re going to have trouble finding competent employees who will accept jobs without healthcare benefits, even if they are committed to the cause. The solution sounds wonderful, but IMO it’s unlikely to work well in practice. They don’t have to provide no health insurance at all for it to work - they only have to eliminate coverage of prescription drugs. Not all health insurance plans include prescription drug coverage. I’ve had plans that only included doctor and hospital charges- no prescriptions , no dental, no optical. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-a-law-do-you-have-to-follow-it-thoughts-please/216071/28 "2003-12-01T04:59:08Z")
Bullshit like this is why I no longer consider myself a Catholic. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-a-law-do-you-have-to-follow-it-thoughts-please/216071/29 "2003-12-01T05:06:58Z")
Actually, a majority of Catholics (myself included) disagree with official church teaching about birth control (not including abortion). I can’t find any recent statistics, but from this site [http://www.uscatholic.org/soundboard/1998/jun/bc2.html](http://www.uscatholic.org/soundboard/1998/jun/bc2.html) > [@](#): > > A 1992 Gallup poll showed that 80 percent of U.S. Catholics disagreed with the statement “Using artificial means of birth control is wrong.” And a 1996 study conducted by Father Thomas Sweetser for the Parish Evaluation Project found only 9 percent of Catholics who consider birth control to be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![lel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8797f3/32.png) [@lel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lel)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-a-law-do-you-have-to-follow-it-thoughts-please/216071/30 "2003-12-01T05:09:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lynn Bodoni \* > **In this country, we don’t always allow religions to do what they consider to be proper to keep their relationship with their god optimal. For instance, we don’t allow marriages of more than two people, despite the fact that some religions consider having multiple wives one of God’s commandments. We don’t allow honor killings. We decide what is best for the whole society, and we require religions to make some compromises with our society.** Very true, and there are certain things that religions would request which I would feel may be properly overruled by the state, such as the request of a parent not to give their child a blood transfusion on religious grounds. However, in this case, their refusal to provide for contraceptives in healthcare plans does not directly harm the life of either the employee or someone directly under the employee’s care, which would be the standard I would use for permitting the state to overrule a religious belief. > [@](#): > > I’d really rather not live in a society where a religion makes all the rules that EVERYONE has to live by, whether they are followers of that religion or not. Likewise here. As long as the Catholic Church cannot prohibit people from getting access to contraceptives, I don’t see where they are making the rules for everyone. If the employees of agencies which would be affected by this decision feel strongly that their health insurance plans should provide for contraceptives, they are generally free to procure other employment. > [@](#): > > We also disallow certain cultural traditions, because we believe that they are detrimental to society as a whole. I believe this is the crux of the disagreement – where is that line drawn? I don’t see the failure to provide for contraceptives in a healthcare plan due to religious beliefs as being detrimental to society as a whole. When they start requesting that emergency medical services not be covered because they believe it is sinful, I believe that the state may then have a legitimate interest in not providing an exemption to certain laws based on religious grounds. ---
**Author:** ![lel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8797f3/32.png) [@lel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lel)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-a-law-do-you-have-to-follow-it-thoughts-please/216071/31 "2003-12-01T05:15:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by doreen \* > \*\*They don’t have to provide no health insurance at all for it to work - they only have to eliminate coverage of prescription drugs. Not all health insurance plans include prescription drug coverage. I’ve had plans that only included doctor and hospital charges- no prescriptions , no dental, no optical. \*\* That might work for many of their employees, but would they be able to attract top-level talent for their organization without providing any sort of prescription drug plan? (I’m not familiar with typical compensation packages for high-level employees.) If not providing a prescription drug plan doesn’t render them less able to carry out their charitable missions, then they should do so. Would having no prescription drug coverage hamper their missions? ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-a-law-do-you-have-to-follow-it-thoughts-please/216071/32 "2003-12-01T06:29:41Z")
> [@](#): > > Would having no prescription drug coverage hamper their missions? Don’t know. But if they don’t get the exemption, I’m pretty sure we’ll find out. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-a-law-do-you-have-to-follow-it-thoughts-please/216071/33 "2003-12-01T11:16:47Z")
**SnoopyFan** , I apologize. From what I’ve read on your views on Planned Parenthood and abortion and my own prejudices, I misread your point. You see, an old friend of mine went to her doctor after the birth of her second child (both within wedlock, for what it’s worth), and asked for birth control. She was told they didn’t do that because they were a “Christian practice.” She changed her Primary Care Provider. As it happens, one of the better known sources of low cost birth control is Planned Parenthood, although they get publicity for other services they provide. Let’s face it, the quality of employee Catholic Charities will get is probably more dependent on the economy than on the benefits it offers. If the economy’s what it is now in my city, people will be happy to take less than optimal jobs because a job with bad benefits or less than ideal working conditions beats no job. On the other hand, if things improve to a point where people feel they have a choice of where to work and which job to take, then Catholic Charities might feel the pinch. I brought up impotence drugs because when Viagra first came out, several companies covered it but not birth control. Once word of this got out, there was an outcry, and I think things are better balanced now, but it struck me as hypocritical and a bit sexist to cover Viagra but not Depo Provera. Respectfully, CJ ---
**Author:** ![SnoopyFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d07c76/32.png) [@SnoopyFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnoopyFan)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-a-law-do-you-have-to-follow-it-thoughts-please/216071/34 "2003-12-01T13:21:22Z")
**I brought up impotence drugs because when Viagra first came out, several companies covered it but not birth control.** Now _that_ is just nuts, I agree. Insurance companies will pay for some old geezer to get it up but they won’t help women NOT get pregnant, thus avoiding having to pay out bazillions in OB/childbirth costs? Crazy. I’m glad there was an outcry over that. ---
**Author:** ![LibrarySpy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f9ae1b/32.png) [@LibrarySpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LibrarySpy)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-a-law-do-you-have-to-follow-it-thoughts-please/216071/35 "2003-12-01T15:19:33Z")
**SnoopyFan** is a woman? :eek: There are insurance plans at respectable organizations that don’t cover contraception? :eek: Good grief, here at my (ultra-conservative) employer, there was a big stink when the possibility of making people switch to the generic pill came up. Perhaps the Catholic folks can do more of a voucher system–give their employees credits to invest in any health care program they want. That’s what we’re implementing here…looks good on paper. And yes, they could choose not to have a health plan at all, I suppose. But if they do, they have to follow the rules. I could choose not to drive, but if I drive, I have to follow all the rules, silly or otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![SnoopyFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d07c76/32.png) [@SnoopyFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnoopyFan)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-a-law-do-you-have-to-follow-it-thoughts-please/216071/36 "2003-12-01T17:53:44Z")
**But if they do, they have to follow the rules.** They ARE following the rules. The point is is that this rule sucks, and they are trying to change that because following said rule is infringing on their freedom of religion. If you don’t like a law, you DO have the right to challenge it in court. And I don’t know where you people live, and maybe it’s a WV thing but I don’t know many people with what I call GOOD health coverage, by which I mean a decent deductible, dental/vision and a prescription plan. Here you’re lucky if you have ANY health benefits at all, and if you do have them, most of the time it’s bare bones. (I have had exactly _one_ job in the 4 years I have lived here in which I had health coverage, and the deductible was so high that I couldn’t use it at all, because I was being paid jack crap.) **Expecting** contraception coverage is a pipe dream, either you guys are spoiled or good health coverage is the norm in other states. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-a-law-do-you-have-to-follow-it-thoughts-please/216071/37 "2003-12-01T18:26:32Z")
> [@](#): > > Expecting contraception coverage is a pipe dream Well, actually, isn’t that kind of the point? California is trying to say that if your employer offer prescription coverage, yes, you can **expect** it to include contraception. I would suspect that your latter option is true, at least here in Florida. I’ve worked for three different companies in the last 12 years, all had some form of health coverage and of the two that offered prescription coverage, both cover contraception. ---
**Author:** ![Velma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/85e7bf/32.png) [@Velma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velma)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-a-law-do-you-have-to-follow-it-thoughts-please/216071/38 "2003-12-01T22:27:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rysler \* > \*\* > There are insurance plans at respectable organizations that don’t cover contraception? :eek: > > \*\* Happens all the time in states that don’t mandate it. I have coverage under both my employer and my husband’s, and both offer really good plans. Mine especially - I have a low co-pay, I pay nothing for dental visits, and the coverage is quite broad and even includes things like counseling and help with addictions and therapy. The one thing both policies lack is any coverage for any type of birth control except partial coverage for sterilization. On the plus side, I only have to pay $60 total for pre and postnatal care and birth! I really don’t understand how this is a cost-effective practice for them. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-a-law-do-you-have-to-follow-it-thoughts-please/216071/39 "2003-12-02T15:18:59Z")
Does the Catholic Charities only employ Catholics? Can they discriminate in hiring on the basis of faith? I went to Catholic school and not every teacher was a Catholic. So they are employed by the Catholics, well actually employeed by the Sisters of Mercy, (but I don’t think they use birth control pills either) do they have to follow their beliefs? Do employees have to follow the beliefs of their boss? I don’t think they should. ---
**Author:** ![SnoopyFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d07c76/32.png) [@SnoopyFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnoopyFan)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-a-law-do-you-have-to-follow-it-thoughts-please/216071/40 "2003-12-02T17:35:01Z")
**Does the Catholic Charities only employ Catholics?** Maybe. **Can they discriminate in hiring on the basis of faith?** Yes. **Do employees have to follow the beliefs of their boss?** No, but a boss shouldn’t be forced to do something against their religious beliefs, either. Especially when they are offering something they don’t HAVE to offer to begin with (benefits). Not offering contraceptive coverage isn’t forcing employees to “follow the beliefs of their boss.” It is simply saying “If you want birth control, you’re going to have to find another way to get it because I am not paying for your contraceptive coverage.” What is so damn hard to understand about that? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-a-law-do-you-have-to-follow-it-thoughts-please/216071.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-a-law-do-you-have-to-follow-it-thoughts-please/216071.md?page=3)