# "If you don't believe in God, why don't you steal and murder?" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 29, 2011, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384 "2011-01-29T06:29:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/1 "2011-01-29T06:29:47Z")
You hear this line of reasoning a lot from some theists. They declare that atheists must be immoral, because without God, and the fear that he will punish you even if you aren’t caught by society, what’s stopping people from committing murder/theft/rape/etc. Sometimes you can get away with these things on Earth - the police may never catch you. But God always knows, so you can’t escape his wrath. Without the latter, there’s nothing to scare people into behaving. This, in their mind, is a way to demonstrate that atheists are as a whole a worse, less moral, more evil class of people. But of course the implications should be obvious. They are essentially saying that the fear of God’s punishment is the only thing keeping them from murder/rape/theft/etc. They must assume that, like them, everyone would do these things if they could get away with them. Whereas with atheists who are good people they behave that way because the world is a better place if they do and because they don’t want to harm others. The irony here is that the very thing that makes them feel superior to ethical atheists actually proves they’re worse people. That they desire to harm others, but are held back by fear of punishment, whereas the ethical atheists are good people because they want to do their part to making the world a better place. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/2 "2011-01-29T07:15:00Z")
“If you’re so convinced that I have nothing inhibiting me from committing murder, why aren’t you being more polite to me?” ---
**Author:** ![tellsitlikeitis54](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@tellsitlikeitis54](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tellsitlikeitis54)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/3 "2011-01-29T07:33:04Z")
I like your post and agree whole heartedly. I think some atheists think more highly of themselves sometimes and most of the conversations I have personally had with some about their beliefs and their beliefs are so contridicting to the life they are really living it is sad that they think the way they do. I was born and raised Catholic in a very small town and when I turned 13 years old my parents let me decide what religion if any that I wanted to be a part of but I always fell back to my roots and my mother’s religion and I am no saint, but I couldnt even fathom living without knowing or believing that there is a higher power out there some where that created us and to me that is GOD and that faith I have gets me through everyday of my life happily and content. That is my opinion and a little of my life. I am truely sorry if this offends anyone that is not my intention here. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/4 "2011-01-29T07:44:33Z")
Not directly related to the OP but this appeared recently, [In Praise of Anarchy](http://dailyreckoning.com/in-praise-of-anarchy/). The author starts: \*Left alone, good people tend to do good things. And, when unobstructed by coercion, force, violence or any other tool employed by the state in order to foster and maintain a more “responsible,” “socially conscious” citizenship, most people tend toward being good people…all on their very own. Nowhere was this sentiment better expressed during the past few weeks than in the flood-stricken state of Queensland, Australia (and, more lately, in the state of Victoria, to Queensland’s south). The rains that inundated an area the size of France and Germany (combined!) across the Sunshine State wrought havoc and destruction upon its people. Lives were lost, property damaged and industry crippled. When the worst of Mother Nature’s wrath had subsided, Queensland residents were left with a monumental clean up. To their credit, these individuals, in the face of near-immeasurable disaster, performed admirably. They did what came naturally. Contrary to the patriotic rally cries of politicians, they didn’t do what Queenslanders do; they did what good people do. And it was beautiful.\* ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/5 "2011-01-29T08:00:35Z")
I know, it’s not really morality if you fear punishment from the invisible man in the sky. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/6 "2011-01-29T08:23:18Z")
> [@tellsitlikeitis54](#): > > I like your post and agree whole heartedly. I think some atheists think more highly of themselves sometimes and most of the conversations I have personally had with some about their beliefs and their beliefs are so contridicting to the life they are really living it is sad that they think the way they do. Could you explain this? How is it posible to live a life in contradiction to an absence of belief in gods (unless they are practicing religion). Atheism itself is not a belief so how can any lifestyle “contradict” it? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/7 "2011-01-29T08:45:58Z")
> [@don\_t\_ask](#): > > Not directly related to the OP but this appeared recently, [In Praise of Anarchy](http://dailyreckoning.com/in-praise-of-anarchy/). > > The author starts: > > \*Left alone, good people tend to do good things. And, when unobstructed by coercion, force, violence or any other tool employed by the state in order to foster and maintain a more “responsible,” “socially conscious” citizenship, most people tend toward being good people…all on their very own. > > Nowhere was this sentiment better expressed during the past few weeks than in the flood-stricken state of Queensland, Australia (and, more lately, in the state of Victoria, to Queensland’s south). > > The rains that inundated an area the size of France and Germany (combined!) across the Sunshine State wrought havoc and destruction upon its people. Lives were lost, property damaged and industry crippled. > > When the worst of Mother Nature’s wrath had subsided, Queensland residents were left with a monumental clean up. > > To their credit, these individuals, in the face of near-immeasurable disaster, performed admirably. They did what came naturally. Contrary to the patriotic rally cries of politicians, they didn’t do what Queenslanders do; they did what good people do. And it was beautiful.\* That’s not evidence for the evil or uselessness of government; that’s just human psychology in a disaster scenario. In the immediate occurrence of a disaster, most people (including outright criminals, much less “good people”) will forget their normal differences and help each other. When the waters recede, the fires die down, the rubble settles, people return to normal selfish behavior. A lack of government produces Somalia, not some utopia. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Could you explain this? How is it posible to live a life in contradiction to an absence of belief in gods (unless they are practicing religion). Atheism itself is not a belief so how can any lifestyle “contradict” it? He/she _may_ have meant “theist”, not atheist"; it would fit better given that they said they agreed with the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Barchetta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/da6949/32.png) [@Red\_Barchetta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Barchetta)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/8 "2011-01-29T09:06:08Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > But of course the implications should be obvious. They are essentially saying that the fear of God’s punishment is the only thing keeping them from murder/rape/theft/etc. They must assume that, like them, everyone would do these things if they could get away with them. Here’s what I don’t understand: Doesn’t God forgive anything when asked? If that’s the case, then what’s keeping Christians in check? ---
**Author:** ![fuzzypickles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9d8465/32.png) [@fuzzypickles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fuzzypickles)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/9 "2011-01-29T09:09:33Z")
Theft and murder have real-world consequences. Most people (including genuine psychopaths) are smart enough to recognize the consequences of their actions, even if they desire theft, rape & murder in their hearts – which is precisely why serial killers & gangster films have such a strong fan base, btw. People who believe in God are actually _more likely_ to go beyond the pale. How many atheist terrorists have you ever heard about??? > [@Red\_Barchetta](#): > > Doesn’t God forgive anything when asked? If that’s the case, then what’s keeping Christians in check? No, it gives them an excuse to break the law (or at least violate basic morality, including the commandments of their faith) and ask for forgiveness later. Christianity is the perfect refuge for people with zero compassion; it allows everyone in the flock to indulge in carnal sins with zero sense of remorse. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Barchetta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/da6949/32.png) [@Red\_Barchetta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Barchetta)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/10 "2011-01-29T09:22:17Z")
> [@fuzzypickles](#): > > No, it gives them an excuse to break the law (or at least violate basic morality, including the commandments of their faith) and ask for forgiveness later. Right, I think that’s what I said 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Neidhart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Neidhart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neidhart)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/11 "2011-01-29T11:39:53Z")
> [@fuzzypickles](#): > > How many atheist terrorists have you ever heard about??? The Weathermen? Shining Path? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/12 "2011-01-29T12:23:25Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > He/she _may_ have meant “theist”, not atheist"; it would fit better given that they said they agreed with the OP. The content of their post would suggest they didn’t understand the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/13 "2011-01-29T13:28:59Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > You hear this line of reasoning a lot from some theists. Never heard it once from theists. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/14 "2011-01-29T13:29:02Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > “If you’re so convinced that I have nothing inhibiting me from committing murder, why aren’t you being more polite to me?” > [@madmonk28](#): > > I know, it’s not really morality if you fear punishment from the invisible man in the sky. What people fear most about others tells me great whopping volumes about themselves. If you fear that others should be violent psycopathic murderers if not for the presence of God, then this tells me that YOU would be a violent psychopathic murderer if not for your fear of God. So please keep believing in your God. And stay the fuck away from me. I don’t want to know you or have you anywhere near me. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/15 "2011-01-29T13:47:56Z")
The other side of the coin. I don’t believe in hell, but I’m not taking any chances either. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/16 "2011-01-29T13:55:30Z")
Dude, I really don’t think you understood the posts you quoted. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/17 "2011-01-29T14:32:11Z")
Too much work involved. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Onimous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ea5d25/32.png) [@Ann\_Onimous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Onimous)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/18 "2011-01-29T14:43:19Z")
As a Theist, I have never heard anyone use that argument. Morality does not depend in religion or any religious belief system. It solely depends on the person. And I do not believe God forgives everything unless you are really serious about asking. I mean, someone who does ask just to “cover their ass” or to make themselves feel better and thinks God will forgive them: nuh-uh. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/19 "2011-01-29T14:58:52Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Never heard it once from theists. This isn’t the whole line of thinking, but the basic gist of it was expressed in the other thread, which is what got me thinking about the subject. > [@Of course I don't worship Satan, moron!](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-i-dont-worship-satan-moron/569317/20): > > Hell, I imagine to some of them, atheists ARE child molesters. I mean, what’s holding them (atheists) back? It’s not uncommon among the … simpler religious people. Have you never gotten a reaction like “Wait, you don’t believe in God? But… you’re a good person” from someone reflexively disbelieving the notion that one can be good without theism? ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/20 "2011-01-29T15:01:44Z")
> [@tellsitlikeitis54](#): > > I like your post and agree whole heartedly. I think some atheists think more highly of themselves sometimes and most of the conversations I have personally had with some about their beliefs and their beliefs are so contridicting to the life they are really living it is sad that they think the way they do. I was born and raised Catholic in a very small town and when I turned 13 years old my parents let me decide what religion if any that I wanted to be a part of but I always fell back to my roots and my mother’s religion and I am no saint, but I couldnt even fathom living without knowing or believing that there is a higher power out there some where that created us and to me that is GOD and that faith I have gets me through everyday of my life happily and content. That is my opinion and a little of my life. I am truely sorry if this offends anyone that is not my intention here. Um, I think you may need to carefully re-read the OP again. I’m pretty sure you \*entirely \*missed the point what he was saying… [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384.md?page=2)