# "If you don't believe in God, why don't you steal and murder?" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 29, 2011, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384 "2011-01-29T06:29:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/41 "2011-01-29T19:48:04Z")
Someone is seriously claiming that the question is only asked in random and rare occurrences? My own MOTHER asked me that when I told her I was Wiccan. My own FATHER regularly tells me that I’m going to hell and that he doesn’t understand what keeps me from stealin’, rapin’, and killin’. My atheist friends are regularly asked how they plan to teach their children morals and values without a religious background. And those questions come from the other parents in their neighborhood, their playgroups, the parents of the other children in the daycare. To claim that the belief that atheists, and even non-Christians, can’t be moral isn’t prevalent is…bizarre. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/42 "2011-01-29T21:09:27Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > I did. Not a single goddamn link on the first page puts forth the argument that the OP is refuting. That’s my fucking point. Really? When I search for that question, [the very first hit](http://carm.org/can-atheists-be-ethical), a christian website, addresses the accusation. Their answer happens to be “yes”, though they do discuss the dangers of moral relativism. They seem to be suggesting an atheist’s morals coincide with god’s rules, they are acting morally. The other implication is that if an atheist’s moral code in in conflict with god, then the atheist is acting immorally even if he doesn’t believe he is. Skipping past a couple of explicitly atheist sites we come to [theology web](http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?14221-Can-An-Atheist-Be-Moral), where people who appear to be religious zealots on a message board argue that atheists are not moral, though they may act morally “by accident”. Of course only 10 links appear on the first page. Of the 10, 5 are explicitly atheist, and if you won’t accept our word that question is asked frequently, I’m sure you won’t accept theirs either. 2 more sites are explicitly christian, and though they answer differently they both admit the question gets asked. Three others are either “answer” boards or discussion boards, all of which address the question of atheists having morals. So WTF were you searching for? ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/43 "2011-01-29T21:13:08Z")
[http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&biw=1024&bih=513&q=are+atheists+moral&aq=6&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=are+athe](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&biw=1024&bih=513&q=are+atheists+moral&aq=6&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=are+athe) What the fuck were YOU searching for. Don’t make shit up. The first ain’t your site. Besides, you just proved my point. The cite you used for the argument that is rarely made is a christian website that _does not make that argument_ ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/44 "2011-01-29T21:16:35Z")
Here’s the other side of the question, for atheists: If you _think_ that the only reason theists _don’t_ steal, murder, etc. is fear of God’s wrath, punishment, hell, etc., why don’t you wholeheartedly support their believing in God? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/45 "2011-01-29T21:18:01Z")
For the record, there are other reasons why a belief in God might motivate someone to behave well, besides fear of punishment. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/46 "2011-01-29T21:19:29Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Here’s the other side of the question, for atheists: If you _think_ that the only reason theists _don’t_ steal, murder, etc. is fear of God’s wrath, punishment, hell, etc., why don’t you wholeheartedly support their believing in God? The often unpleasant side effects of that belief for one. People can often be power hungry assholes who think they are right. Thinking they have the backing of God often takes those defects and magnifies it significantly . Though, personally, I usually don’t care if one believes in God or not. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/47 "2011-01-29T21:23:21Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > [Google Search](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&biw=1024&bih=513&q=are+atheists+moral&aq=6&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=are+athe) > > What the fuck were YOU searching for. Don’t make shit up. The first ain’t your site. Besides, you just proved my point. The cite you used for the argument that is rarely made is a christian website that _does not make that argument_ I searched for exactly, word for word, as a quote, exactly what Czarcasm suggested: **Can an atheist be moral?** [The results are here.](http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Can+an+atheist+be+moral%3F%22&hl=en&num=10&lr=&ft=i&cr=&safe=off&tbs=) No they don’t make the argument that an atheist can’tbme moral. But they do say the argument is made, and that the argument is wrong. I’m glad this is the pit, so I can call you the stupid fuck that you are. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/48 "2011-01-29T21:32:28Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I searched for exactly, word for word, as a quote, exactly what Czarcasm suggested: **Can an atheist be moral?** [The results are here.](http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Can+an+atheist+be+moral%3F%22&hl=en&num=10&lr=&ft=i&cr=&safe=off&tbs=) > > No they don’t make the argument that an atheist can’tbme moral. But they do say the argument is made, and that the argument is wrong. > > I’m glad this is the pit, so I can call you the stupid fuck that you are. Fine, I got the quote wrong. What the fuck ever. Not one of you want to be atheist martyr jackasses has been able to provide one single site besides an obscure message board where that argument was made. It is a fucking strawman. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/49 "2011-01-29T21:34:55Z")
What percentage of people need to hold a view before it’s no longer a straw man? There are almost no creationists on the SDMB - if I made a thread pitting creationists, would you say I’m making up strawmen to bash theists? ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/50 "2011-01-29T21:48:43Z")
Here’s another one for ya: [http://atheismexposed.tripod.com/atheists\_moral\_people.htm](http://atheismexposed.tripod.com/atheists_moral_people.htm) First page of Google results on “can an atheist be moral”. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/51 "2011-01-29T21:50:23Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > What percentage of people need to hold a view before it’s no longer a straw man? There are almost no creationists on the SDMB - if I made a thread pitting creationists, would you say I’m making up strawmen to bash theists? Oddly enough, I did the same thing with a poster named **Ben** who kept putting anti-creationist screeds in GD. I’m not a creationist, but I was annoyed by him clogging up the forum with his arguments against hypothetical opponents. It is a form of ego masturbation to argue against somebody who isn’t even there. You are doing the same thing here. You are pitting a hypothetical opponent. You can’t even tell me who said this besides the vague “they”. Who the fuck is the “they”? Is this just what “they” say? Who, specifically, are you arguing against? Whose argument did you take apart? You have no “who”, **beef**. That’s what makes you Ann Coulter. Just replace “theist” with “liberal” and you’re a chick with man hands on Hannity. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/52 "2011-01-29T21:50:45Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > Fine, I got the quote wrong. What the fuck ever. Well, you also accused him of lying, so bad form there, too. > [@](#): > > Not one of you want to be atheist martyr jackasses has been able to provide one single site besides an obscure message board where that argument was made. It is a fucking strawman. I’m more of an apathetic agnostic, myself, but are you seriously arguing that arguments like this aren’t made fairly commonly by theists? My own father has asked me, if I don’t believe in God, what compels me to do good. Hell, I’m pretty damned sure _I_ would have asked the same question if I knowingly met an atheist during my Catholic upbringing. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/53 "2011-01-29T21:59:30Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > Oddly enough, I did the same thing with a poster named **Ben** who kept putting anti-creationist screeds in GD. I’m not a creationist, but I was annoyed by him clogging up the forum with his arguments against hypothetical opponents. It is a form of ego masturbation to argue against somebody who isn’t even there. Wait, so the persons you’re pitting have to be on the boards now? Why aren’t you out policing all the other threads where people are railing at politicians, coworkers, etc? > [@](#): > > You are doing the same thing here. You are pitting a hypothetical opponent. You can’t even tell me who said this besides the vague “they”. Who the fuck is the “they”? Is this just what “they” say? Who, specifically, are you arguing against? Whose argument did you take apart? You have no “who”, **beef**. That’s what makes you Ann Coulter. Just replace “theist” with “liberal” and you’re a chick with man hands on Hannity. What do you want? Names of the people I’ve met in my life who think that all atheists are inherently immoral and evil? My relatives who are concerned about my soul and what my lack of religiosity means about what sort of person I am? By your standards, you can’t bash creationism on a board about fighting ignorance because we don’t have any open, outspoken creationists. Don’t you realize this inherently makes your position ridiculous? ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/54 "2011-01-29T22:10:15Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > What do you want? I don’t know. Pit the guy in real life who said that to you. The thing is, though, I think you made it up. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/55 "2011-01-29T22:13:55Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > I don’t know. Pit the guy in real life who said that to you. The thing is, though, I think you made it up. And all the other folks HERE that have had people they know in real life (much less the wide internet/pop culture world) wonder how an athiest could be moral are making it up too? ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/56 "2011-01-29T22:14:49Z")
Well, clearly. We’re atheists, which means we’re lacking the moral code that would normally keep us from doing stuff like telling lies. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/57 "2011-01-29T22:43:50Z")
The whole question is ridiculous. If believing in god is an important factor in determining the morality of a person, why are so many believers criminals and murderers? They should be pure. They are certainly not. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/58 "2011-01-29T22:46:01Z")
My husband’s parents used to tell me all the time that I could not be a moral person without Jesus guiding me through life. They used to get quite worked up because I refused to take my daughter to Sunday school or church, saying that she’d grow up to be a horrible person. In fact, I’d say that she’s the most moral and most successful of their grandchildren. Some of my inlaws on his side of the family would also claim this. One of my bosses and one of my coworkers in a dress shop in Las Vegas used to say this to me all the time. Oddly enough, both of them were from New York City, not from the deep South, which is another place I’ve frequently encountered this. I’ll grant that I’ve lived most of my life in the deep South, so that’s where I get most of my examples. I’ve had a dental hygienist ask the dentist if she HAD to treat me, after hearing me discuss religion (in a friendly, respectful manner) with another dental assistant who had ASKED me about my religion. Another boss, a Muslim, felt that only Muslims were moral people. He also thought that most Americans were completely ignorant of Islam. I was doing some sort of menial chores around the office, and he was wondering if he should take a second wife (he liked to make provocative statements), because he was allowed to have up to four. I told him that he couldn’t do it under US law, and that even if he was legally allowed to do so, he’d have to treat each wife equally. He was amazed that I knew something of Islam but was not a believer. He was sort of like Jack Chick in that way. These are only a few of the people I’ve encountered who didn’t think that I couldn’t be a moral person unless I believed in their God. Now, I’ll grant you, probably most believers are not this outspoken…but they do exist. And possibly I live in a place that has more fervent believers than most, because we have a Baptist seminary in town. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/59 "2011-01-29T22:49:15Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > I don’t know. Pit the guy in real life who said that to you. The thing is, though, I think you made it up. Fine, let’s start with [this idiot.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hTnmZkHnTE) I’m not pitting my dad, though. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/60 "2011-01-29T22:56:13Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > You are doing the same thing here. You are pitting a hypothetical opponent. Oh, please. Don’t be obtuse. As an atheist I’ve heard this argument many times. The most recent was in the interminable [“Is Existentialism an obsolete philosophy?”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=568236) thread in Great Debates. Read down a few posts and you’ll find this: [QUOTE=ch4rl3s] You see, the problem is that you would have to show me an ethical atheist. And to do that you would first have to define ethical and good apart from religion. And when there is no superior being who ordered the universe and decrees what the outcomes should be, you have no basis to say that any given outcome is superior to any other. [/QUOTE] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384.md?page=4)