# "If you don't believe in God, why don't you steal and murder?" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 29, 2011, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384 "2011-01-29T06:29:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![ctywkr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecb155/32.png) [@ctywkr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ctywkr)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/81 "2011-01-30T05:51:22Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I will also point out that I know a lot more immoral self-proclaimed atheists than self-proclaimed theists. But I believe that’s because I live in a place where a certain brand of Christianity is mainstream, and thus the atheists who don’t move away are often the type that became that way as a response to Christianity. These people often throw out the baby with the bathwater, so to speak, or, worse, only claim to be atheists to alleviate their guilt. Then why are there so many christians on death row? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/82 "2011-01-30T06:18:35Z")
**BigT** , I too would like to know how you’re defining “immoral,” because there are somethings which are defined as “immoral” only by religious belief. Premarital sex, homosexuality, eating meat and not going to church on sunday are can all be defined as “immoral” in some religious systems. I (like I think the majority of atheists) tend to define morality in terms of how we treat other people. Basically it boils down to the Golden Rule for us just like in every major religious system. “Immoral” actions are those that hurt other people. Like **Cyningablod** said above, the morality of sexual behavior is contextual. I would say, for instance, that “adultery” is immoral when it involves betrayal and deception, but not if the relationship is open, or the other party is not deceived or betrayed. The effect of our behavior on others is what matters. The notion that things like extramarital or homosexual sex are inherently “immoral” is based on archaic ideas of ritual purity, not actual ethical morality. I think that most theists probably feel this way when it comes right down it it as well, and I would even argue that it’s at the core of what Jesus himself taught. In my experience, while no group is perfect, the biggest assholes tend to be religious. That isn’t to say that most religious people are assholes, though, nor do I think that religions is to blame for people being assholes, but I think the really big assholes gravitate towards religion so they can use it as a weapon. ---
**Author:** ![Cyningablod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Cyningablod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyningablod)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/83 "2011-01-30T06:33:28Z")
> [@ctywkr](#): > > Then why are there so many christians on death row? Actually, to be totally fair, we atheists probably shouldn’t use this as a counterargument, because the reason there are so many more Christians in prison (or on death row, if you prefer) is likely because they “got religion” _after_ going to prison. (That’s not to say that they were atheists before, though. Not at all. They were most likely _nominal_ Christians when they committed their crimes, who just didn’t give a shit one way or another about either atheism or Xtianity. This is the case with my ex-brother-in-law, who’s now in prison for murder. He never cared about religion before, but now he’s a devout believer.) So these prison statistics don’t really suggest that Christians are less (or equally) moral than atheists. Yeah, it’s utter bullshit when god-believers imply or accuse us of being less moral, and there are lots of ways to refute that. But the prison population stats aren’t a very good way to respond, and we need to stay totally above-water in terms of intellectual honesty. ---
**Author:** ![Cazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cazzle/32/75_2.png) [@Cazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cazzle)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/84 "2011-01-30T06:41:43Z")
I’ve heard this in real life too - only once but it was here in Australia, where religion isn’t as in-your-face as in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/85 "2011-01-30T06:42:17Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > You hear this line of reasoning a lot from some theists. They declare that atheists must be immoral, because without God, and the fear that he will punish you even if you aren’t caught by society, what’s stopping people from committing murder/theft/rape/etc. Sometimes you can get away with these things on Earth - the police may never catch you. But God always knows, so you can’t escape his wrath. Without the latter, there’s nothing to scare people into behaving. > > This, in their mind, is a way to demonstrate that atheists are as a whole a worse, less moral, more evil class of people. > > But of course the implications should be obvious. They are essentially saying that the fear of God’s punishment is the only thing keeping them from murder/rape/theft/etc. They must assume that, like them, everyone would do these things if they could get away with them. > > Whereas with atheists who are good people they behave that way because the world is a better place if they do and because they don’t want to harm others. > > The irony here is that the very thing that makes them feel superior to ethical atheists actually proves they’re worse people. That they desire to harm others, but are held back by fear of punishment, whereas the ethical atheists are good people because they want to do their part to making the world a better place. If believing in God is the only thing that keeps them from shooting me, then I say Hallelujah, praise the Lord. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/86 "2011-01-30T07:09:07Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Now this, I’m pretty sure, is not actually a position that any atheists really hold. When atheists ask this question, it’s usually meant as a rhetorical device to highlight the logical errors in the idea that theism is a necessary component of moral behavior. I don’t think it’s a purely rhetorical position. I think most people are basically good (not saints, but not rapists/murderers, etc), including, of course, theists. So I think in the absense of religious morality, most of those people would still be basically good. What concerns me are the people who are worried that atheists have no reason not to go on a rape spree because of their non-religion. Your model for the behavior of other people is your own - you tend to think that other people share your desires, preferences, faults, prejudices, etc. until proven otherwise. It’s sort of like those repressed gay religious preachers who talk about how homosexuality is a constant temptation that you can’t fall to - uh, no, for straight people, there’s no temptation to fight at all. But they assume everyone else is like them. Similarly, people who think everyone without religion is about to go on a rape spree are saying something about their own desires, generally. I don’t think that’s universal either - I’m sure there are some good people who are simply ignorant about atheists or have spent their life having them demonified. But it’s something that would concern me about people who held that position. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/87 "2011-01-30T19:31:40Z")
> [@ctywkr](#): > > Then why are there so many christians on death row? Nah, they’re just converted atheists. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Surbey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Surbey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surbey)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/88 "2011-01-30T20:00:31Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Nah, they’re just converted atheists. ☹ unlikely. They may not have been acquainted with their lord before they went to jail but they certainly would not have described themselves as atheists, at least in no representational numbers. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/89 "2011-01-30T22:13:51Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Fine, let’s start with [this idiot.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hTnmZkHnTE) Not only does he provide us with the whole, “where is your moral barometer, if you don’t believe in God” thing, but he actually blesses us with a double scoop by throwing in a bonus, “If we evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys”. Wow. I would like to shake your hand, Steve Harvey. You just made my day. I haven’t heard christians just throw it out there randomly, but I have had religious discussons that include that sentiment. I think if Monkey was the type to enjoy religious discussions, he may find that he hears that whole thing the OP discusses much more often. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/90 "2011-01-30T23:27:04Z")
For the record, this thread has opened my eyes. I’m going to start murdering and thieving, because, hey, why not? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/91 "2011-01-31T00:00:07Z")
If you believe in god, why do you steal and murder? Shouldn’t that make you pure and above that? It is a dumb thread. ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/92 "2011-01-31T00:01:29Z")
> [@](#): > > **“If you don’t believe in God, why don’t you steal and murder?”** Eh, too much work. ---
**Author:** ![Harmonious\_Discord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/74df32/32.png) [@Harmonious\_Discord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harmonious_Discord)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/93 "2011-01-31T01:54:49Z")
> [@](#): > > If you don’t believe in God, why don’t you steal and murder? This is the number one dumbest statement I think that can be brought up in a discussion about God or morality. It’s almost always given as a statement to prove you have to believe or you’d be killing and not as a question to be answered. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/94 "2011-01-31T02:24:29Z")
Has anyone posted this yet? > **[Hot blonde debates herself, Gollum style. I'll be in my intelligently...](https://www.fark.com/vidplayer/5917635)** > > Hot blonde debates herself, Gollum style. I'll be in my intelligently designed bunk ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/95 "2011-01-31T02:57:37Z")
It isn’t only atheists who get the “why don’t you steal and murder” type of question. Grace-oriented Christians get asked, “If you’re justified by faith and not works, what’s the point of doing good works?” or “If the Lord will forgive your sins, why not just sin up a storm?” And not too long ago someone started a GQ thread asking, if Jews don’t believe in an afterlife, what motive do they have for being good Jews? Such questions bring to my mind the image of the world as a giant daycare center, where some of the children are going to bully the others and steal their toys if there isn’t an adult present, watching and enforcing the rules. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/96 "2011-01-31T04:02:10Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > You hear this line of reasoning a lot from some theists. They declare that atheists must be immoral, because without God, and the fear that he will punish you even if you aren’t caught by society, what’s stopping people from committing murder/theft/rape/etc. Sometimes you can get away with these things on Earth - the police may never catch you. But God always knows, so you can’t escape his wrath. Without the latter, there’s nothing to scare people into behaving. > > This, in their mind, is a way to demonstrate that atheists are as a whole a worse, less moral, more evil class of people. Arthur C. Clarke said it best: > [@](#): > > The greatest tragedy in mankind’s entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/97 "2011-01-31T04:03:01Z")
I don’t know how you all get along in the US, I don’t remember EVER being put into these sorts of situations. Or being asked such questions, or of having religion affect anything I had ever done, except for the one time I applied for a job with the Salvation Army, where they explicitly stated that I didn’t need to be Christian to apply. I don’t rape steal or pillage, because I don’t want others to do it to me - simple concept, no higher power needed. I do unto others as I would have them do unto me. On Friday night I came home. My (Christian) FIL was watching a DVD with my 6 year old daughter. On the DVD some rabid wench was “witnessing” as to why Buddhists were uncompassionate and mean. That shit went off straight away. I could not believe that he would bring such crap into my home. I do not say bad things about other religions - much as I might think them, yet this prick, whom I let take my daughter to church thinks he can teach her distrust and spread such crap - that’s what I hate about theism. Oh - and as to the commandments as a guide to “morality” - how do theists know that “God” wasn’t just codifying the behaviour that he was already observing in man? ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/98 "2011-01-31T04:53:05Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > For the record, there are other reasons why a belief in God might motivate someone to behave well, besides fear of punishment. Spot on, some people might just think that the positive side of religion is reason enough to follow it. Oh and atheists have morals, they are based on their life experiences and culture just like religious folk. Funny they are very similar, thought shall not kill, be nice to your neighbors, don’t cast the first stone etc etc are common across nearly all societies. So were they inspired by God or a reaction to one’s environment? I go with the letter. ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/99 "2011-01-31T04:58:01Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > but I think the really big assholes gravitate towards religion so they can use it as a weapon. True but it does not make them religious. They may practice it and put an outward appearance of being religious but they are under their skin amoral scammers. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384/100 "2011-01-31T05:16:00Z")
Heck, I’m not even an atheist (vaguely theist Zen Buddhist!) and I get asked that from my mom and several relatives. The format I most typically get is along the lines of: “You can’t be a Buddhist, you’re a good and moral person. You must be following the Bible, so why don’t you just admit it–just wanna sleep in on Sunday?” I compare/contrast with the two evangelical Christians at my workplace, who I only talked religion about because they were discussing whether a specific (very bigoted, written by some jackass of a preacher) book was accurate as to why Buddhism was immoral and useless. Fortunately for everyone, I read it and pointed out a few of the basic flaws in it, and we were all cool. One experience isn’t any more typical than the other, I’m sad to say. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-believe-in-god-why-dont-you-steal-and-murder/569384.md?page=6)