# If you don't know the facts, shut the fuck up **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 5, 2003, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-the-facts-shut-the-fuck-up/173243 "2003-05-05T18:48:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![chula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@chula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chula)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-the-facts-shut-the-fuck-up/173243/21 "2003-05-06T01:52:53Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Fin\_man \* > Then there was the [OJ Simpson](http://www.cnn.com/US/OJ/verdict/index.html) verdict in October 1995. Again, there were some that said there was a travesty of justice. However, the syphilitic assmonkeys saying the verdict was wrong weren’t on the jury. They don’t know all of the forensic evidence that was presented. Again, they only know what the media showed. Sure, they could have been watching Court TV all day long every day and had a good idea, but I doubt many people did. If they did, they have a right (IMHO) to complain about the verdict as if it were facts and not opinion._ In the case of the OJ trial, the public had a lot _more_ information than the jury. The media showed everything that went on in the courtroom, while the jury only saw bits the judge allowed them to see. Perhaps the jury should not be allowed to present their opinions as facts, since their information was incomplete? (Didn’t I hear some of the jurors say they changed their minds after they heard all the evidence?) You really need to stop and think about what **Miller** said. Your English comprehension skills can’t really be that poor. This was quoted from a book called _A Dictionary of Modern American Usage_ on [another thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=181749): > [@](#): > > None of this should suggest that every personal opinion should include the word I. Most opinions are transparently just that, and they therefore need no direct mention of the writer–e.g.: “Though Einstein is routinely lionized as a great scientific mind, Newton was the most original thinker that science has ever produced.” _No moderately sophisticated reader would assume that this statement is anything more than an opinion._ And it is much more convincingly stated without inserting the phrase in my opinion.[emphasis mine] ---
**Author:** ![Alereon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@Alereon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alereon)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-the-facts-shut-the-fuck-up/173243/22 "2003-05-06T02:00:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fin\_man \* > **I cannot say the verdict was wrong since I don’t know the facts. I can say I believe the verdict was wrong _BUT THOSE ARE TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SENTENCES_.** Those two statements are the EXACT SAME THING said two slightly different ways. If you can’t see that, that’s your problem. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-the-facts-shut-the-fuck-up/173243/23 "2003-05-06T03:17:02Z")
Sorry, **Fin\_man** , but when a poster writes, “The verdict was wrong,” I think that virtually everyone reading that statement understands that the poster is stating an opinion. I don’t think anyone thinks that the statement is an assertion of objective fact. Except you, apparently! On the other hand, if someone posts, “I don’t see how they could have acquitted OJ - after all, we have a videotape of him committing the murders,” _now_ you’ve got a legitimate beef. While we’re at it, even if it _is_ just someone’s opinion, why should that person not protest, or write a letter to someone in power? (I’ll grant you that rioting is never a proper way to express one’s opinion.) Is someone allowed to have an opinion only if he or she is willing to keep quiet about it? ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-the-facts-shut-the-fuck-up/173243/24 "2003-05-06T06:07:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > **I saw the videotape of the King beating. Excessive force. Case closed. I don’t give a fuck what their excuse was.** Did you see the video in its entirety? Including the first 40 seconds, in which King was resisting arrest? The jury saw all of it; the media broadcast (ad infinitum) a truncated version. No, I am **NOT** defending Koon, et. al. If anything, the uncut video is even more damning (judging by how I’ve heard it described) because it shows how the use of force **escalated** , way beyond what was necessary or legal. But the way the video was presented in the media, it looked like the four officers were beating on King for no reason at all. They still didn’t need to use so much force, for so long, to subdue him…but it was necessary to subdue him some kind of way. ---
**Author:** ![Liz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/liz/32/17737_2.png) [@Liz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liz)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-the-facts-shut-the-fuck-up/173243/25 "2003-05-06T10:56:02Z")
**Fin\_Man** , I think you’re taking the definition of “wrong” way too literally. If I say two plus two equals five, I am wrong. Period. Two plus two equalling four is a fact. If I say it’s wrong to use animals for lab experimentation, then I think anyone I’m speaking with knows that’s an opinion, if from nothing but the sheer controversy surrounding the topic. There is no fact in a statement of that context. The dictionary provides several definitions of wrong, one being: Contrary to conscience, unjust, unfair. Another is: Not in conformity with fact or truth, erroneous. I think the first applies to almost any controversial subject. It’s wrong that Rodney King was beaten that way in the fact that it repulsed me morally and ethically. The square root of forty-nine is twelve. That is wrong factually, erroneously. That’s what I think, anyway. 🙂 Thank you, [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=wrong)! I don’t know where I’d be without ya. ---
**Author:** ![Fin\_man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@Fin\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fin_man)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-the-facts-shut-the-fuck-up/173243/26 "2003-05-06T10:59:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Alereon \* > \*\*Those two statements are the EXACT SAME THING said two slightly different ways. If you can’t see that, that’s your problem. \*\* Explain how two statments can be the EXACT SAME THING but said two slightly different ways. If they are slightly different, how can they be the exact same thing? ---
**Author:** ![Fin\_man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@Fin\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fin_man)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-the-facts-shut-the-fuck-up/173243/27 "2003-05-06T11:00:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Early Out \* > \*\*While we’re at it, even if it _is_ just someone’s opinion, why should that person not protest, or write a letter to someone in power? (I’ll grant you that rioting is never a proper way to express one’s opinion.) Is someone allowed to have an opinion only if he or she is willing to keep quiet about it? \*\* I never said people shouldn’t protest or write a letter. I said “No, I’m not going to protest. No, I’m not going to riot. No, I’m not going to write a letter to somebody in power.” That’s me. ---
**Author:** ![Fin\_man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@Fin\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fin_man)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-the-facts-shut-the-fuck-up/173243/28 "2003-05-06T11:09:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by QueerGeekGirl \* > \*\ ***Fin\_Man** , I think you’re taking the definition of “wrong” way too literally. If I say two plus two equals five, I am wrong. Period. Two plus two equalling four is a fact. If I say it’s wrong to use animals for lab experimentation, then I think anyone I’m speaking with knows that’s an opinion, if from nothing but the sheer controversy surrounding the topic. There is no fact in a statement of that context. The dictionary provides several definitions of wrong, one being: Contrary to conscience, unjust, unfair. Another is: Not in conformity with fact or truth, erroneous. I think the first applies to almost any controversial subject. It’s wrong that Rodney King was beaten that way in the fact that it repulsed me morally and ethically. The square root of forty-nine is twelve. That is wrong factually, erroneously. > > That’s what I think, anyway. 🙂 > > Thank you, [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=wrong)! I don’t know where I’d be without ya. \*\* **QGG** - good points. I guess when I hear “wrong” as in verdicts, I use the definition of “not in conformity with truth or fact”. In other words, the jury did not come to the correct decision. I guess others are using “wrong” as in “contrary to consceince, unjust, unfair” which are all opinions. Just like talking about animal testing, there is no “conformity with truth or fact” to discuss. Nobody can say your opinion is incorrect - it’s your opinion. They can have a different opinion, of course. So, to sum up, I have no beef with people saying “wrong” as in “unjust, etal” for the verdicts. I guess I’ll ask for clarification on intent before ranting, as assuming the intent would be wrong…um…inappropriate. ---
**Author:** ![Fin\_man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@Fin\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fin_man)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-the-facts-shut-the-fuck-up/173243/29 "2003-05-06T11:11:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Miller \* > \*\*See, even though the first sentence doesn’t state it explicitly, it’s still an opinion. Most people (you being the obvious exception) are bright enough to understand this, so conventional use allows for people not to explicitly state that an opinion is an opinion. This allows for greater brevity and more flexibility in expression. The downside is, every now and then some moron stands up and shouts, “Oh yeah? Well that’s just your _opinion_!” At which everyone rolls their eyes and goes back to the discussion. Because if someone is stupid enough to think that needs to be pointed out, odds are they don’t have anything worthwhile to contribute. \*\* So, you are saying that when in doubt, assume opinion? Well, the bandwidth savings from posters no longer needing to type “IMO”, “IMHO”, etal will only be dwarfed by those no longer need to respond with “Cite” when another poster says something questionable. Come on, it is only their opinion, right? There is no way to cite an opinion. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-the-facts-shut-the-fuck-up/173243/30 "2003-05-06T11:12:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by QueerGeekGirl \* > . If I say two plus two equals five, I am wrong. except for very large values of 2. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Myrr21](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Myrr21](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myrr21)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-the-facts-shut-the-fuck-up/173243/31 "2003-05-06T11:27:08Z")
Jesus, has nobody ever taught you how the English-fucking-language works? Ever since grade-fucking-two I was taught “you don’t need to state that something is your opinion, because anybody but the most dimwitted fuckup knows that if you’re saying it, then it’s your opinion.” > [@](#): > > Explain how two statments can be the EXACT SAME THING but said two slightly different ways. If they are slightly different, how can they be the exact same thing? Do you really have the brains of a doorknob, or are you just playing at it? Try this: “The sum of two and two is four” “Two plus two equals four” Figure it out yet, sparky? ---
**Author:** ![Fin\_man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@Fin\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fin_man)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-the-facts-shut-the-fuck-up/173243/32 "2003-05-06T11:31:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Myrr21 \* > \*\*Jesus, has nobody ever taught you how the English-fucking-language works? Ever since grade-fucking-two I was taught “you don’t need to state that something is your opinion, because anybody but the most dimwitted fuckup knows that if you’re saying it, then it’s your opinion.” > \*\* So, saying 2 plus 2 equals for is just my opinion? ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-the-facts-shut-the-fuck-up/173243/33 "2003-05-06T12:09:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by chula \* > \*\*In the case of the OJ trial, the public had a lot _more_ information than the jury. The media showed everything that went on in the courtroom, while the jury only saw bits the judge allowed them to see. \*\* \*\*Fin\_Man is also unaware that here in LA, 6 of the 7 local broadcast stations carried the trial live in it’s entirety. Including the discussions on motions that the jury didn’t get to see. CourtTV was not required. You needed cable to see anything **BUT** the OJ trial. It was the jury that didn’t get all the facts. (I still think they came to the right verdict though) ---
**Author:** ![Skid\_Row](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/779978/32.png) [@Skid\_Row](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skid_Row)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-the-facts-shut-the-fuck-up/173243/34 "2003-05-06T12:24:56Z")
Fin\_man, You realize, of course, that the officers were _ **convicted** _ in federal court following their acquittal in state court. They served prison time. Their appeal was denied (although, the prosecutor’s appeal for a more lengthy sentence was also denied). They are criminals and remain convicted felons. I assume this isn’t the verdict you keep bringing up. ---
**Author:** ![elf6c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c57346/32.png) [@elf6c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elf6c)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-the-facts-shut-the-fuck-up/173243/35 "2003-05-06T12:35:03Z")
Juries hardly get it right all the time. There is a reason there are directed verdicts, appeals courts ect. Juries get it wrong- they did in O.J. (as the civil trial showed- he was held liable for the double murders, remember?) and probably did in the Rodney King case (guy was resisting at first, but once he stopped resisting they should have stopped too). The viewing public got much more information then did the jury, and had it carefully explained to them. The O.J. jury shows how certain biases can be played on. It also showed how shitty the L.A. DA’s office was at the time. Yeesh, what a clusterfuck. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Fin\_man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@Fin\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fin_man)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-the-facts-shut-the-fuck-up/173243/36 "2003-05-06T12:41:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Skid Row \* > \*\*Fin\_man, > > You realize, of course, that the officers were _ **convicted** _ in federal court following their acquittal in state court. They served prison time. Their appeal was denied (although, the prosecutor’s appeal for a more lengthy sentence was also denied). They are criminals and remain convicted felons. > > I assume this isn’t the verdict you keep bringing up. \*\* Yes. In the OP, I talk about the 1992 verdict. That was the State criminal trial. The 1993 trial (and verdict) was the Federal civil trial. And to nitpick, “the jury found two of the officers, Koon and Powell, guilty. They acquitted Officers Wind and Briseno.” - from [The Trials of Los Angeles Police Officers’ in Connection with the Beating of Rodney King](http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/lapd/lapdaccount.html) ---
**Author:** ![Fin\_man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@Fin\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fin_man)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-the-facts-shut-the-fuck-up/173243/37 "2003-05-06T12:49:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elf6c \* > **Juries hardly get it right all the time. There is a reason there are directed verdicts, appeals courts ect. Juries get it wrong- they did in O.J. (as the civil trial showed- he was held liable for the double murders, remember?) and probably did in the Rodney King case (guy was resisting at first, but once he stopped resisting they should have stopped too).** When you say “juires hardly get it right”, do you mean right as in correct or right as in just? And in the case of OJ, one was a criminal trial (with the requirement of reasonable doubt) and one was a civil trial (with the requirement of preponderance of evidence). Two different judgements does not mean one was correct and the other incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-the-facts-shut-the-fuck-up/173243/38 "2003-05-06T13:01:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fin\_man \* > \*\*Yes. In the OP, I talk about the 1992 verdict. That was the State criminal trial. The 1993 trial (and verdict) was the Federal civil trial. ] \*\* Factually, it was a Federal criminal trial. Folks do not get sentenced to prison time in civil court. ---
**Author:** ![elf6c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c57346/32.png) [@elf6c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elf6c)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-the-facts-shut-the-fuck-up/173243/39 "2003-05-06T13:05:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fin\_man \* > \*\*When you say “juires hardly get it right”, do you mean right as in correct or right as in just? > > And in the case of OJ, one was a criminal trial (with the requirement of reasonable doubt) and one was a civil trial (with the requirement of preponderance of evidence). Two different judgements does not mean one was correct and the other incorrect. \*\* Jeese if you’re going to quote me, don’t **add** typos! I make enough on my own without you adding to them when attempting to paraphrase me. Also, a criminal trial standard is “beyond a reasonable doubt”. Right as in “correct”. “Just” is a very loaded term, subject to subjective interpretations. “Just” is more apt to be an issue in the penalty phase of a trial, then in the verdict. * * * The jury came up with the incorrect verdict. It happens. The system is set-up to be under-inclusive regarding criminal convictions. O.J. killed 2 people. The amounts of evidence are overwelming, including direct DNA evidence. Just because the LA DA’s office royally screwed the pooch (and ruined their legal careers) does not mean O.J. did not murder those poor people. He did. He just was not held **criminally** responsible for his actions (but was quite easily in the civil action). Now is that a “just” outcome? To me, no. But most of his assets were taken from him. He is a pariah. He has been arrested a couple more times for violence. And if many of the major religions are correct, he ultimately will pay. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-the-facts-shut-the-fuck-up/173243/40 "2003-05-06T13:06:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Myrr21 \* > \*\*Jesus, has nobody ever taught you how the English-fucking-language works? \*\* Dude. And I thought **Fin\_Man** ’s pitting of ME was lame. If you have any doubt that the lad doesn’t have the first clue about how language works, check out the thread **Miller** linked to. Shit – he’s still defending his interpretation of six responses to an IMHO thread as an authoritative source for definitions of words. Near as I can tell, **Fin\_Man** ’s _modus operandi_ is to spout off some stupid shit, get called on it, and escalate, escalate, escalate. He’s not the kind of guy who knows how to back the fuck down and admit he was wrong. But throw him a face-saving bone (to mix metaphors), and you can at least get him to shut up. A word to the wise. Daniel [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-the-facts-shut-the-fuck-up/173243.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-the-facts-shut-the-fuck-up/173243.md?page=3)