# If you don't know the facts, shut the fuck up **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 5, 2003, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-the-facts-shut-the-fuck-up/173243 "2003-05-05T18:48:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Fin\_man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@Fin\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fin_man)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-the-facts-shut-the-fuck-up/173243/41 "2003-05-06T13:10:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elf6c \* > **The jury came up with the incorrect verdict.** Opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Fin\_man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@Fin\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fin_man)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-the-facts-shut-the-fuck-up/173243/42 "2003-05-06T13:12:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DanielWithrow \* > \*\*Near as I can tell, **Fin\_Man** ’s _modus operandi_ is to spout off some stupid shit, get called on it, and escalate, escalate, escalate. He’s not the kind of guy who knows how to back the fuck down and admit he was wrong. \*\* Did you bother to read this? > [@](#): > > QGG - good points. I guess when I hear “wrong” as in verdicts, I use the definition of “not in conformity with truth or fact”. In other words, the jury did not come to the correct decision. I guess others are using “wrong” as in “contrary to consceince, unjust, unfair” which are all opinions. Just like talking about animal testing, there is no “conformity with truth or fact” to discuss. Nobody can say your opinion is incorrect - it’s your opinion. They can have a different opinion, of course. > > So, to sum up, I have no beef with people saying “wrong” as in “unjust, etal” for the verdicts. I guess I’ll ask for clarification on intent before ranting, as assuming the intent would be wrong…um…inappropriate. Called on it? As in “stray”, there is a difference in which definition is being used. ---
**Author:** ![TaxGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@TaxGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TaxGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-the-facts-shut-the-fuck-up/173243/43 "2003-05-06T14:28:18Z")
OK, I agree with the crowd in this thread, but I think that we can re-formulate the OP very slightly so that it actually does make a pretty valid point. Here’s another point that I think **Fin\_man** is trying to make, and it would be a good one had he not later bogged it down by harping on the bad point he made: If you feel comfortable stating your opinion of whether a jury verdict was “right” or “wrong” and you were not a member of that jury, then you are a rather dim-witted goat-felching so-and-so. The only facts that matter are the ones presented to the jury, and it also matters how they were presented to the jury, so a person who is not on the jury has absolutely no standing to agree or disagree with the verdict, and anyone that does so has a dim understanding of the legal system. The only reasonable response a non-litigant should have to a jury verdict is to accept it as the truth because of the role the jury has been given in our system of justice. ---
**Author:** ![elf6c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c57346/32.png) [@elf6c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elf6c)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-the-facts-shut-the-fuck-up/173243/44 "2003-05-06T14:37:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fin\_man \* > \*\*Opinion. \*\* Gee really? :rolleyes: At least you didn’t add any typos this time. ---
**Author:** ![SwimmingwithChickens](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@SwimmingwithChickens](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SwimmingwithChickens)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-the-facts-shut-the-fuck-up/173243/45 "2003-05-06T14:37:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Miller \* > \*\*Was that you from the other thread? I’d completely forgotten. > > At any rate, you should perhaps stop trying to parse English, as you’re really bad at it. I mean, you have that quote, by me, asking why you’d brought up law suits. And as proof that what I wrote is stupid, you quote yourself, from earlier in the thread, bringing up lawsuits. Thus neatly answering your own question. Convenient for me, but it doesn’t cast you in the best light, intellectually speaking. And then there’s earlier in this thread, where you have a quote from **Beagle** saying, in his opinion, that the Rodney Kind verdict was wrong, and contrast that with a hypothetical quote of somebody else, saying the Rodney King verdict was wrong. > > Oh, and let’s not forget [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=174665) gem of a thread, where you pit **DanielWithrow** because you don’t know what the definition of “stray” is. It’s even funnier when you realize that **DanielWithrow** works at an animal shelter. Uninformed opinions are bad enough, but pitting somebody who’s arguably an expert in the very field in which you have no experience… that’s just fucking hilarious. \*\* Ah, methinks this was personal and this post proves it as such. I was wondering why Fin\_Man’s post in the “white only prom” received such a harsh slap from Miller, but it seems that a grudge of some sort has formed. FTR, I was involved in Dog Bite thread, and once again it seems that a frustration fuels a fire more than logic. While that thread dealt with perception (ie, a charging “stray” dog being a possible thread or whatever) the Prom Thread dealt with legal reality. Yeah it sucks that a “white only” prom exists, but legally as long as it’s a private party and not sponsored at all (in ANY way) by the school, there is very little that can be done about it. Fin\_man made mention of that fact by saying you can either protest or sue and then Miller jumped on him. Personally I think there are far too many lawsuits in this country, but legally it is one of the options available. Now I didn’t read the rest of the thread, but it seemed a little odd at the time for such a hostle reaction from Miller, but I don’t really know Miller so I don’t know if he’s just a blunt, curt poster or if it was out of context or whatever. My point is (if I indeed had one…) it seems a bit odd for Miller to so readily rehash old pit threads without a prior grudge. Now if Daniel came in and pointed out such and such then I’d understand it. Also, I think the pit should be reserved for arguments not he said/she said. Both Miller and Fin\_man are guilty of this to a degree. Get back to yelling at each other regarding your views and less rehashing the past because, lets face it, I’ve already read those threads… ---
**Author:** ![Fin\_man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@Fin\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fin_man)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-the-facts-shut-the-fuck-up/173243/46 "2003-05-06T14:39:34Z")
**TaxGuy** , I would alter it slightly to say it is ok to include a caveat like “Given the evidence I saw…” or similar. This, to me, implies that the speaker/poster knows that he/she does not know all of the information. ---
**Author:** ![SwimmingwithChickens](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@SwimmingwithChickens](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SwimmingwithChickens)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-the-facts-shut-the-fuck-up/173243/47 "2003-05-06T14:45:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rilchiam \* > \*\*Did you see the video in its entirety? Including the first 40 seconds, in which King was resisting arrest? The jury saw all of it; the media broadcast (ad infinitum) a truncated version. > > No, I am **NOT** defending Koon, et. al. If anything, the uncut video is even more damning (judging by how I’ve heard it described) because it shows how the use of force **escalated** , way beyond what was necessary or legal. But the way the video was presented in the media, it looked like the four officers were beating on King for no reason at all. They still didn’t need to use so much force, for so long, to subdue him…but it was necessary to subdue him some kind of way. \*\* I think this is a very well thought out post on the subject. Also those posters who added that juries don’t get to see _all_ of the evidence do have a good point. For instance I’ve never seen the uncut video. While it probably wouldn’t change my opinion of those cops and the brutality they committed, it does add to the argument that facts matter quite a bit when spouting opinion. I also can’t believe this hasn’t been mentioned, “Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one, and usually you don’t want to see them.” Hmmm, now that I preview that quote perhaps I’ve got it a bit backward… Damn it, I knew I should have figured out the difference between my ass and my elbow… ---
**Author:** ![TaxGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@TaxGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TaxGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-the-facts-shut-the-fuck-up/173243/48 "2003-05-06T14:52:29Z")
> [@](#): > > _by Rilchiam_They still didn’t need to use so much force, for so long, to subdue him…but it was necessary to subdue him some kind of way. See, this is what I was talking about above: the jury that was empanelled in the Rodney Kind case is the body that the justice system has decided has the power to determine whether the cops used the right amount of force. The justice system contains various rules for how the jury must be selected, what types of evidence can be presented to the jury, and what types of influences can be brought to bear on the jury. Therefore, any other person’s opinion about the evidence is somewhat “illegitimate” or “irrelevant” because it was not formulated under the proper circumstances. No one who’s posted to this thread was there the night the Rodney King incident happened, so the only thing we can do is to trust the body that is tasked with deciding what happened. ---
**Author:** ![Skid\_Row](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/779978/32.png) [@Skid\_Row](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skid_Row)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-the-facts-shut-the-fuck-up/173243/49 "2003-05-06T16:46:03Z")
TaxGuy, I hate to be a nitpicker, but there were **two** juries. One that acquitted the officers in state criminal court and one that convicted them in federal criminal (not civil) court. So, no matter which side you take on this now **very** old issue, you can point to a jury that got it “_right_.” Skid ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-the-facts-shut-the-fuck-up/173243/50 "2003-05-06T20:54:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fin\_man \* > \*\*So, you are saying that when in doubt, assume opinion? Well, the bandwidth savings from posters no longer needing to type “IMO”, “IMHO”, etal will only be dwarfed by those no longer need to respond with “Cite” when another poster says something questionable. Come on, it is only their opinion, right? There is no way to cite an opinion. \*\* I feel like I’m writing _Debate for Total Asswits_ here. It’s astonishing the sort of things some people need explained to them in painful detail, but here goes anyway. Doubt doesn’t enter into it. There are facts, and their are opinions, and deciding which is which is _not_ a matter of opinion. That Rodney King was beaten with nightsticks by four police officers is a fact: it’s independently verifiable and not in dispute by either side. Wether that beating was a criminal assault or a legitimate method of subduing a potentially dangerous criminal is a matter of opinion. Even the verdict of the jury was a matter of opinion, and by extension, any comment on the validity of that verdict is also an opinion. Of course you can offer a cite for an opinion. Or rather, you can cite facts as supportive of your opinion. Let’s say I go into another thread and say, “ **Fin\_man** has the intellect of a dead trout.” Someone else might ask me, “What makes you say that, **Miller**? Can you offer a cite showing that **Fin\_man** has the intellect of a dead trout?” And then I’d link to this thread, so the other poster can read it and draw his own conclusions, such as “I think you’re underestimating the trout.” **SwimmingwithChickens** : No, I don’t have a grudge against **Fin\_man** , excepting the one I hold against morons in general. Before the White Prom thread, I’d no idea who **Fin\_man** was, and by the end of that thread, I’d forgotten him again. Or at least, I’d gotten confused and mentally misattributed his posts early in the thread to **milroyj**. I brought up the old pit threads because, when I saw the OP, I was pretty certain I could find a few threads where he had offered an opinion on a subject he was not an expert on. Of course, that was before I realized that he wasn’t ranting about uninformed opinions, but was merely a somewhat dimwitted pedantic literalist. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by TaxGuy_ > No one who’s posted to this thread was there the night the Rodney King incident happened, so the only thing we can do is to trust the body that is tasked with deciding what happened. I have a real problem with this position. See, I _don’t_ trust the courts to render just and correct verdicts, especially when it comes to race. There is a long history of the most heinous and brutal miscarriages of justice in this country when it comes to racially motivated crimes, and the only tonic for them that has proved to be even remotely effective has been social outrage. Indeed, out entire legal system is predicated on the idea of the public trial, because public comment and scrutiny can check many abuses of power by the judicial system. And, in general, the system works: for the better part of a century, it was impossible for a black man to get a fair trial in the Southern US. It was only through widespread public criticism and protest that this was eventually changed. If Martin Luther King, Jr. had “trust[ed] the body that [was] tasked with deciding what happened,” we’d still be living under Jim Crow to this day. ---
**Author:** ![Fin\_man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@Fin\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fin_man)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-the-facts-shut-the-fuck-up/173243/51 "2003-05-07T00:51:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Miller \* > **Doubt doesn’t enter into it. There are facts, and their are opinions, and deciding which is which is _not_ a matter of opinion. That Rodney King was beaten with nightsticks by four police officers is a fact: it’s independently verifiable and not in dispute by either side. Wether that beating was a criminal assault or a legitimate method of subduing a potentially dangerous criminal is a matter of opinion. Even the verdict of the jury was a matter of opinion, and by extension, any comment on the validity of that verdict is also an opinion.** I guess you don’t live in America or understand the American judicial system. A verdict from a jury at the end of the trial **is the fact**. If someone is found not guilty, he/she is **NOT GUILTY**. This cannot be changed. It is a fact. I’m not going to talk about the appeals process if found guilty since I do not know what the requirements are for an appeal (i.e. can somebody get one just since they don’t like the outcome or does there need to be evidence of error in the first trial). I agree with you that there are facts and **THERE** are opinions, and people cannot decide which is which. However, if I were to say “SARS is spreading like wildfire in China”, is that a fact or opinion? Unless you do research, you would not know. So, without requiring readers to research every statement in a post, which should we assume? Given the surety in which it is written, I don’t believe it to be a wild assumption that it is fact. But, if I were to say “IMO, SARS is spreading like wildfire in China”, there is no possible way that can be misread. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-the-facts-shut-the-fuck-up/173243/52 "2003-05-07T05:45:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fin\_man \* > I guess you don’t live in America or understand the American judicial system. A verdict from a jury at the end of the trial **is the fact**. If someone is found not guilty, he/she is **NOT GUILTY**. This cannot be changed. It is a fact. I’m not going to talk about the appeals process if found guilty since I do not know what the requirements are for an appeal (i.e. can somebody get one just since they don’t like the outcome or does there need to be evidence of error in the first trial). No, it’s an opinion. A verdict is the opinion of the judge or jury on the guilt of the accused, based on their evaluation of the evidence. That opinion is backed by the force of law, but it is still an opinion. And it is even refered to as such within the legal system: [**Opinion:**](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=opinion) 5. Law. A formal statement by a court or other adjudicative body of the legal reasons and principles for the conclusions of the court. And, even better, [**Verdict:**](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=verdict) 2. An expressed conclusion; a judgment or opinion. So you see, a verdict is an opinion, and an opinion is a verdict. The two words are interchangable, as you would have known if you had taken two minutes to crack open a dictionary. As the great man once said, “If you don’t know the facts, shut the fuck up.” Oh, and as regards the changability of a verdict, here’s a bonus definition for ya: [**Appeal**](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=appeal). Pay particular attention to definition #3. > [@](#): > > I agree with you that there are facts and **THERE** are opinions, and people cannot decide which is which. Nice catch there, Mr. Strunk. You must have been waiting all thread for me to make that typo, so you could pounce on it. Must’ve been frustrating, the other fifty time I correctly used that word or one of it’s homonyms. But yes, finally, I did make arguably the single most common typo in the English language. Kudos for spotting that. > [@](#): > > However, if I were to say “SARS is spreading like wildfire in China”, is that a fact or opinion? Unless you do research, you would not know. So, without requiring readers to research every statement in a post, which should we assume? Given the surety in which it is written, I don’t believe it to be a wild assumption that it is fact. But, if I were to say “IMO, SARS is spreading like wildfire in China”, there is no possible way that can be misread. Opinion. I don’t even need to know what SARS is. Or China, for that matter. You used a simile. You’re making a judgement on the spread of the disease as compared to the spread of a wildfire. I might disagree: wildfire spreads much more quickly. I might think it’s spreading like molasses on a hot summer day. Now, if you said “SARS is spreading at a dangerous rate,” well, that would _still_ be an opinion. “Dangerous” is a relative term. If you said “SARS is spreading,” then, at last, you would be talking fact. At least, that’s assuming that there were more SARS cases currently than there had been previously. Otherwise it would not be a fact, it would be a lie. See, it’s easy to tell an opinion from a fact if you just _think_ about it for .03 seconds. Try it yourself! Earlier, I said I’d made “arguably the single most common typo in the English language.” Was that a fact? Or opinion? What if I’d left out the word “arguably”? Make a small diorama to illustrate your answer, and present it to the class. If you get it right, I’ll give you a sucker. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-the-facts-shut-the-fuck-up/173243/53 "2003-05-07T06:09:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fin\_man \* > \*\* A verdict from a jury at the end of the trial **is the fact**. If someone is found not guilty, he/she is **NOT GUILTY**. This cannot be changed. It is a fact. . \*\* Very true. Once a person is found not guilty, the law considers them not guilty from then on. But that doesn’t mean they didn’t do it. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-the-facts-shut-the-fuck-up/173243/54 "2003-05-07T06:53:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fin\_man \* > \*\*I guess you don’t live in America or understand the American judicial system. A verdict from a jury at the end of the trial **is the fact**. If someone is found not guilty, he/she is **NOT GUILTY**. This cannot be changed. It is a fact. I’m not going to talk about the appeals process if found guilty since I do not know what the requirements are for an appeal (i.e. can somebody get one just since they don’t like the outcome or does there need to be evidence of error in the first trial). > \*\* The only fact is that they made a decision. They could of course be wrong and I mean all of the jurors. Look at the 100 or more cases of people convicted and placed on death row only to later be released because someone else comitted the murder. Even facts turn out to be opinions, people used to believe the earth was flat. ---
**Author:** ![Fin\_man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@Fin\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fin_man)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-the-facts-shut-the-fuck-up/173243/55 "2003-05-07T11:23:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spooje \* > \*\*Very true. Once a person is found not guilty, the law considers them not guilty from then on. > > But that doesn’t mean they didn’t do it. \*\* And that is why they call them not guilty - but they don’t call them innocent. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-the-facts-shut-the-fuck-up/173243/56 "2003-05-07T11:28:56Z")
Restating the obvious? ---
**Author:** ![Fin\_man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@Fin\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fin_man)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-the-facts-shut-the-fuck-up/173243/57 "2003-05-07T11:37:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Miller \* > \*\*No, it’s an opinion. A verdict is the opinion of the judge or jury on the guilt of the accused, based on their evaluation of the evidence. That opinion is backed by the force of law, but it is still an opinion. And it is even refered to as such within the legal system: > > [**Opinion:**](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=opinion) 5. Law. A formal statement by a court or other adjudicative body of the legal reasons and principles for the conclusions of the court. > > And, even better, > > [**Verdict:**](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=verdict) 2. An expressed conclusion; a judgment or opinion.\*\* Looking at the links you provided, you would see that opinion (the non-law definition - since we aren’t talking legal opinions but personal opinions) has the definition “A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof.” God, I would hope a verdict would be substantiated with some knowledge or proof. And for verdict, the definition includes " (Law) The answer of a jury given to the court concerning any **matter of fact** in any cause, civil or criminal, committed to their examination and determination; the finding or decision of a jury on the matter legally submitted to them in the course of the trial of a cause." _emphasis mine_ So, where is this at all like an opinion? And **EasyPhil** , my contention is that people can believe the jury was incorrect. Just don’t say things like “I know the jury was wrong” as if you are stating a fact. Even though people thought the earth was flat, I don’t believe it was ever stated as a fact, just a belief (but I could be incorrect) ---
**Author:** ![Fin\_man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@Fin\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fin_man)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-the-facts-shut-the-fuck-up/173243/58 "2003-05-07T12:05:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spooje \* > \*\*Restating the obvious? \*\* Not really - just stating that I know there is a difference. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-the-facts-shut-the-fuck-up/173243/59 "2003-05-07T16:05:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Coldfire \* > \*\*In fairness: what is your opinion on the OJ verdict, then? \*\* I really don’t have enough information to form an opinion on that one. ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-the-facts-shut-the-fuck-up/173243/60 "2003-05-07T16:45:21Z")
Wow, I get props from **Zenster** for my vitriol and **Fin\_man** for my judiciousness, all thanks to the same thread… I’ve gotta lie down. I’m a big fan of going off half-cocked foaming at the mouth, but after a few rather painful lessons, I’ve learned (well, almost) to make sure I don’t look like a _complete_ dumbass beforehand. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-the-facts-shut-the-fuck-up/173243.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-the-facts-shut-the-fuck-up/173243.md?page=4)