# If you don't know what God is how do you know God doesn't exist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 8, 2005, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-what-god-is-how-do-you-know-god-doesnt-exist/334754 "2005-12-08T21:17:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![George\_Kaplin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3e96dc/32.png) [@George\_Kaplin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/George_Kaplin)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-what-god-is-how-do-you-know-god-doesnt-exist/334754/21 "2005-12-08T23:07:00Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > First Question: > If you don’t know the meaning of the word God, then how do you know that God doesn’t exist? In the case of the Judeo-Christian God, the meaning is quite clear. It is an integral part of Christian dogma. Every Christian denomination, irrespective of their differences on points of dogma, worships a God with three abiding characteristics; Omnipotence, omniscience, and omnibenevolence. The fact that evil exists means that he can’t be all three. > [@mswas](#): > > Second question: > Is it possible for one person to have an experience that another person has never had? No two people have ever shared the same experience, as different people experience the same things in subtly different ways. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-what-god-is-how-do-you-know-god-doesnt-exist/334754/22 "2005-12-08T23:08:06Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I am disturbed by your lack of faith. 🙂 The invisible pink part is no more a mystery than the trinity, which plenty of people believe. > > A while back I asked you a bunch of questions about god, which included > > - is god separately conscious? > > - does god have a moral code? > > - how is the universe with god different from the universe without god? > > We’ve also had a debate about the definition of god [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=344622&page=2&pp=50&highlight=Voyager+mswas+definition) > Is this discussion going to be anything new? Or should we change the thread name to “I refuse to tell you what I mean by God, so you can’t not believe in it.” > > And not believing, by the way, is what atheism is all about. I simply wanted people to answer the questions. Erek ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-what-god-is-how-do-you-know-god-doesnt-exist/334754/23 "2005-12-08T23:11:53Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I simply wanted people to answer the questions. > > Erek Ok-doo. > [@](#): > > First Question: > f you don’t know the meaning of the word God, then how do you know that God doesn’t exist? Logically, if you have no knowledge of an object, then you cannot deny it’s existence. Thus, I can safely, and logically, deny the existence of a deity that people believe in, for example, beause they have characteristics. But not, and indefinable object is impossible to prove existence-wise, either way. > [@](#): > > Second question: > Is it possible for one person to have an experience that another person has never had? Yep, sure. I’m sitting on my chair - you’ve never sat on my chair. What’s the point of your questions? It seems worryingly like you’re building to a strawman, but i’ll give you the benefit of the doubt. What are the questions for? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-what-god-is-how-do-you-know-god-doesnt-exist/334754/24 "2005-12-08T23:12:58Z")
As for your three questions. -No -Irrelevant -God is intrinsic to the universe, this is a false language paradox, nothing more. It proves that your words are insufficient to describe what they are describing, they do not reveal anything about what actually exists empirically. The difference is one is true the other is false. **GeorgeKaplin** Assuming that you know the purpose of evil, and what God’s goals are. Your temporary suffering could just be a lesson that you are being taught. But again, the Tri-Omni question is a language paradox, it does not accurately describe the object itself. Erek ---
**Author:** ![Schuyler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/54ee81/32.png) [@Schuyler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schuyler)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-what-god-is-how-do-you-know-god-doesnt-exist/334754/25 "2005-12-08T23:14:39Z")
> [@Schuyler](#): > > what is _your_ meaning when you use the word God in the OP, and how would you describe _your_ usage of the word exist? > [@mswas](#): > > I see multiplicities springing from a hierarchy of relative measurements that are emerging from a sizeless, shapeless and timeless point. Just so I’m clear, is this what you are offerring as your meaning when you use the word “God” in the OP? If so, then thanks. Now, could you describe the meaning of your above statement? I truly don’t know how one would address the existence or non-existence of the thing described by that statement. And that’s not even getting to the _conditions_ that you view as required to establish existence. Ack - on preview, I see that the discussion has been progressing at a frantic pace. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-what-god-is-how-do-you-know-god-doesnt-exist/334754/26 "2005-12-08T23:16:50Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I simply wanted people to answer the questions. > > Erek Well, the problem is that the question can be turned around and lose not one whit of its profundity– **If you don’t know what God is how do you know God does exist?** The answer to both questions is the same. Some questions for you. 1–Are two questions that have the same answer the same question? 2–Is it possible for one person to have the same experience as another person? 3–Does a proposition that has an equal chance of being proved right and being proved wrong have any value as a functional guide to life? 4–If a hen and a half can lay an egg and a half in a day and a half, how many monkeys with a wooden leg does it take to kick the seeds out of a dill pickle? 5–If someone says that God is intrinsic to the universe, has that person not defined God and therefore committed Blasphemy? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-what-god-is-how-do-you-know-god-doesnt-exist/334754/27 "2005-12-08T23:21:18Z")
> [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > Ok-doo. > > Logically, if you have no knowledge of an object, then you cannot deny it’s existence. Thus, I can safely, and logically, deny the existence of a deity that people believe in, for example, beause they have characteristics. But not, and indefinable object is impossible to prove existence-wise, either way. Well if you have no knowledge of the subject then no you cannot deny its existance, but if you are denying it based upon a few little fragments you’ve picked up of other peoples definitions. One thing that people tend to share about the idea of God is that it’s pretty fucking expansive, so is it any more than vanity that causes one to deny a concept that is awfully important to a lot of people based upon a few out of context fragments that one has picked up from the experiences of others? I believe what I said before, because I can see it. **Schuyler** I will not EVER give you a solid definition for God. Don’t expect it to ever come. > [@](#): > > Yep, sure. I’m sitting on my chair - you’ve never sat on my chair. > What’s the point of your questions? It seems worryingly like you’re building to a strawman, but i’ll give you the benefit of the doubt. What are the questions for? I don’t believe in the existance of Strawmen, though of course I don’t really know the meaning of it in terms of this forum the way its bandied about any time someone disagrees with something someone else said. Erek ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-what-god-is-how-do-you-know-god-doesnt-exist/334754/28 "2005-12-08T23:27:37Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Well if you have no knowledge of the subject then no you cannot deny its existance, but if you are denying it based upon a few little fragments you’ve picked up of other peoples definitions. One thing that people tend to share about the idea of God is that it’s pretty fucking expansive, so is it any more than vanity that causes one to deny a concept that is awfully important to a lot of people based upon a few out of context fragments that one has picked up from the experiences of others? I do not need to know everything about something in order to know it does not exist. For example, If I hear that there is an elephant that has wings, then I know this cannot exist, because part of the definition of an elephant is that they are not birds, nor can they fly. I don’t need any other information, like an elephant is grey, or that some species have larger ears than others - that’s superfluous. > [@](#): > > I believe what I said before, because I can see it. As can schizophrenics, when they hallucinate. Why are you different from a schizophrenic? > [@](#): > > I don’t believe in the existance of Strawmen, though of course I don’t really know the meaning of it in terms of this forum the way its bandied about any time someone disagrees with something someone else said. A strawman would be saying this: Person A: I believe Trees are actually red. Person B: Why? Person A: Because your argument is that trees are always green, when sometimes they can be brown! See, you’re just not willing to take into account other coloured trees, so clearly i’m right. Person B: …? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-what-god-is-how-do-you-know-god-doesnt-exist/334754/29 "2005-12-08T23:28:33Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > **Schuyler** I will not EVER give you a solid definition for God. Don’t expect it to ever come. In that case, surely you must understand that that any attempts on your part to illustrate your beliefs must needs be fruitless. How can we talk about anything when we cannot even agree on what it is we are talking about? > [@mswas](#): > > I don’t believe in the existance of Strawmen, though of course I don’t really know the meaning of it in terms of this forum the way its bandied about any time someone disagrees with something someone else said. > > Erek [Strawman Fallacy](http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html) ---
**Author:** ![Schuyler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/54ee81/32.png) [@Schuyler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schuyler)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-what-god-is-how-do-you-know-god-doesnt-exist/334754/30 "2005-12-08T23:52:26Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > **Schuyler** I will not EVER give you a solid definition for God. Don’t expect it to ever come. Jeez luweez - I think that the people who have responded to this thread have done a nice job of saying, "please inform us of your meaning when you use the word “God” in a sentence. I mean, even if you had said something like “by God I mean the wonderment I feel in experiencing and perceiving the universe, and the glorious knowledge that each person and everything in it are connected in some beautiful harmony - it is so profound that I am given this wonderful insight into the cosmos, and I truly wish to share and communicate the wonderful insights it provides me on my journey through this life.” (I’m not saying that you believe this, I’m just giving it as an example of what someone might say who feels free to use the word “God” in conversation but who doesn’t buy into the Judeo-Christian concept of a personal deity.) Then we could try to address whether this feeling or awareness or yours is necessarily completely physical, or if there are insights to be realized by considering a metaphysical or supernatural model for the concept that you have just described. But it seems like you are ducking the question you yourself raised in the OP, and I think that folks have been pretty understanding (if maybe a bit frustrated). Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![George\_Kaplin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3e96dc/32.png) [@George\_Kaplin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/George_Kaplin)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-what-god-is-how-do-you-know-god-doesnt-exist/334754/31 "2005-12-08T23:54:20Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > GeorgeKaplin Assuming that you know the purpose of evil, and what God’s goals are. Your temporary suffering could just be a lesson that you are being taught. Let’s start at the beginning. In order for God to be omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent, God must know the future. Now, let’s hypothesise a God that stands outside of time. Time, in our hypothesis, is a series of connected dots on a piece of paper. Each dot represents an event, no matter how small. God is holding the paper and can see how the dots connect. If he chooses, he can erase a dot, place it somewhere else, reconnect it to the previous and subsequent dots and thus altering the shape of the line. This is obviously an oversimplification, but it will do for the purposes of this discussion. Now, consider Hurricane Katrina. Over 1000 people died. Hundreds of thousands of people were utterly dispossessed. Over a million were displaced. However, thanks to the tireless efforts of hundreds of climatologists, meterologists, and environmentalists, the Government had enough advance warning to evacuate most of the city. Had the fate of New Orleans been left in the ethereal hands of God, the human toll would have been exponentially higher. There would have been no warning and no clemency. In order to believe that Hurricane Katrina served a positive, ultimately beneficial purpose known only to God, we need to make several highly unreasonable assumptions. Firstly, we must assume that God deemed all the residents of New Orleans to be in need of moral tuition at precisely the same time. This is ludicrous on its face. Secondly, we need to assume that the human intervention _against_ God’s divine fury actually worked in Gods favour. Thirdly, we need to assume that a great many people needed to die in order to fully grasp the complexity of their “lesson”. Fourthly, we need to assume that they could not have been taught the same thing any other way. If this is true, God is not omnipotent or omniscient and so we’re right back where we started, with an internal contradiction in the fundamental nature of God. I think it’s safe to say that the majority of people left beind in New Orleans, once their friends and neighbours had fled to higher ground, believed in an all powerful, compassionate, and loving God. Surely this God heard the prayers of the old men and women as they hobbled upstairs, away from the rising waters, to their bedrooms, to their attics where they eventually drowned. Surely he heard the inarticulate screams of the babies, and the mothers hunting for their babies. Surely he could have accomplished the same thing by moving a few of those dots around a bit. > [@mswas](#): > > But again, the Tri-Omni question is a language paradox, it does not accurately describe the object itself. This sounds interesting, but I’m not sure of your meaning. Can you elaborate on this, please? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-what-god-is-how-do-you-know-god-doesnt-exist/334754/32 "2005-12-08T23:57:30Z")
If the concept of God is incapable of being described in words\*, isn’t it rather silly to try and debate, with words, the existence of God? I think \*\*mswas \*\*just needs to be content with his/her belief and leave the rest of us alone. \*according to **mswas** ---
**Author:** ![George\_Kaplin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3e96dc/32.png) [@George\_Kaplin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/George_Kaplin)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-what-god-is-how-do-you-know-god-doesnt-exist/334754/33 "2005-12-09T00:01:26Z")
Sorry. I left out a few words in one of the paragraphs in my last post. Here it is in full with the added words **bolded** > [@Me](#): > > Fourthly, we need to assume that they could not have been taught the same thing any other way. If this is true, God is not omnipotent or omniscient, **unless he is, in which case he’s not omnibenevolent** and so we’re right back where we started, with an internal contradiction in the fundamental nature of God. ---
**Author:** ![Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58956e/32.png) [@Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoodoo_Ulove)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-what-god-is-how-do-you-know-god-doesnt-exist/334754/34 "2005-12-09T00:03:41Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > For instance I feel Gods presence right now, I always feel God’s presence, I’ve even had experiences where my perception of everything in the world was disappearing, and the only thing I sensed in that void besides myself was God’s presence. These experiences of course are ineffable, meaning I lack the ability to communicate this through writing or speech, unless to someone who’s had a similar experience, then it’s not hard at all. First you say you feel God’s presence, then you say the experience is ineffable. Ineffable means it cannot be expressed in words. Saying you feel God’s presence is expressing it in words. Don’t you see a problem with this? ---
**Author:** ![Ghanima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Ghanima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ghanima)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-what-god-is-how-do-you-know-god-doesnt-exist/334754/35 "2005-12-09T00:12:33Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > So I don’t really look at God as a Bearded Man in the sky, mostly I see multiplicities springing from a hierarchy of relative measurements that are emerging from a sizeless, shapeless and timeless point. If you want to define it by one particular face, then I’d say that you are looking at archetypes, while some may be vast and encompass a great deal in comparison to your reference point, it is still not the object itself. All Matter and Energy are tricks of the light, giving me a lens through which to view any of the myriad aspects. Is it just me, or are you saying you’re a pagan? multiplicities, heirarchy, archetypes, myriad of aspects - sounds like a pagan to me. I’m not seeing any monotheism here. In other words, I’m thinking you don’t believe in a monotheistic definition of “God” which is a bit of a contradiction. So how can you believe in God if you don’t know what God even means? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-what-god-is-how-do-you-know-god-doesnt-exist/334754/36 "2005-12-09T00:20:10Z")
**George Kaplin** , you are going to fall into his trap. **mswas** has a serious hard-on for atheists for having the temerity to say they do not believe that whatever is represented by the word “god” exists. The reason for this appears to be that **mswas** has an entirely different meaning that he assigns to the word “god” and he gets tired of throwing out posts discussing his god only to be challenged by unsuspecting atheists who are not yet keyed in to his idolect. I deny the fundamental premise of this thread (which looks a lot like a new take on the [Fundamental Misunderstanding of the Nature of God](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=344622) thread, in which I posted an apparently [pre-emptive rebuttal](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=6872630#post6872630) to this thread along with [a clarification](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=6873896#post6873896)). _(Don’t worry, **mswas** , I’m not going to hang around this thread, interrupting. I just figured I ought to provide one perspective to prospective posters before I find myself with another multi-page tangle of misunderstandings to moderate. Enjoy your discussion.)_ ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-what-god-is-how-do-you-know-god-doesnt-exist/334754/37 "2005-12-09T00:20:19Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Oh, and the IPU analogy only really works with a Bearded Man in the Sky approach to God. By defining what god isn’t you’ve defined what god IS as well. I guess that makes you a blasphemer. As usual, go for less verbosity and more content. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-what-god-is-how-do-you-know-god-doesnt-exist/334754/38 "2005-12-09T00:32:20Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I will not EVER give you a solid definition for God. Don’t expect it to ever come. I have a pflurgle. No, I’m not going to tell you what it is. The mere fact that I own one means that you now have to send me a check for $1.98 every day, otherwise you’ll be struck by lightning and die. By your logic, you now have to concede that I might, in fact, have a pflurgle- and unless you’re willing to get hit by lightning and die, you need to break out the checkbook. 'Cause, you know, I have a pflurgle. ---
**Author:** ![Schuyler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/54ee81/32.png) [@Schuyler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schuyler)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-what-god-is-how-do-you-know-god-doesnt-exist/334754/39 "2005-12-09T00:35:54Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > **George Kaplin** , you are going to fall into his trap. > > **mswas** has a serious hard-on for atheists for having the temerity to say they do not believe that whatever is represented by the word “god” exists. > > The reason for this appears to be that **mswas** has an entirely different meaning that he assigns to the word “god” and he gets tired of throwing out posts discussing his god only to be challenged by unsuspecting atheists who are not yet keyed in to his idolect. Just as a side note, I thought the discussion was going fine without reference to that other [trainwreck](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=344622). Of course, as you’ve surmised, many of the posters here are aware of the importance of describing the usage of the word God before answering questions about it/him/her/whatever. I think that’s why many of us are focused on the request for a definition of a word that is used in the OP. I thought that your brief comments here to **George Kaplin** were very concise, and didn’t even need the last two paragraphs (which IMHO only serve to muddy the waters in this thread). Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-what-god-is-how-do-you-know-god-doesnt-exist/334754/40 "2005-12-09T00:36:28Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > If the concept of God is incapable of being described in words\*, isn’t it rather silly to try and debate, with words, the existence of God? Because even though we may not be able to wholly describe God, we can still infer things about it from what we perceive. > [@John Mace](#): > > I think mswas just needs to be content with his/her belief and leave the rest of us alone. ‘Just ignore the shadows on the wall; there’s nothing to think here.’ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-what-god-is-how-do-you-know-god-doesnt-exist/334754.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-know-what-god-is-how-do-you-know-god-doesnt-exist/334754.md?page=3)