# If you don't send jobs overseas you'll be run out of business. Hah. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 22, 2011, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-send-jobs-overseas-youll-be-run-out-of-business-hah/579400 "2011-04-22T20:05:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-send-jobs-overseas-youll-be-run-out-of-business-hah/579400/1 "2011-04-22T20:05:29Z")
Yeah, free traders despise me. But if I cared what y’all free trade fanatics thought then I wouldn’t be posting this, now would I? The “if you don’t send jobs overseas you’ll be out-competed by cheap labor” crowd deserves to be stung by this bit of irony. This company below did offshore their production and directly because of that, they got pretty close to run out of business. Let this serve as a warning to everyone who says this can’t happen! [http://unlawflcombatnt.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=globalization&thread=8968&page=1](http://unlawflcombatnt.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=globalization&thread=8968&page=1) A Cautionary Tale Of Outsourcing To China: There Is No Recourse, You Could Lose Everything > [@](#): > > Thousands of American companies that have moved production to China to take advantage of cheap labor might want to consider a case study that is unfolding for a U.S. manufacturing company. Fellowes Inc., one of the world’s largest makers of office and personal paper shredders, is witnessing the destruction of its business, as its large Chinese manufacturing plant has been shut down by its joint venture manufacturing partner. > > The company’s Chinese joint venture firm has barred 1,600 employees from entering the plant, stolen all of its proprietary manufacturing production equipment and forced the venture into bankruptcy. The contracts Fellowes signed with its Chinese production company meant nothing. For Fellowes, there is no such thing as rule of law in China. > > The Itasca, Ill.-based company has lost $168 million worth of business and is no longer able to produce personal shredders for the world market. It has taken its case to Chinese courts, to no avail. It has pleaded with members of Congress and federal agencies, with no results. ---
**Author:** ![Omegaman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e480ec/32.png) [@Omegaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omegaman)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-send-jobs-overseas-youll-be-run-out-of-business-hah/579400/2 "2011-04-22T20:34:47Z")
Again? ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-send-jobs-overseas-youll-be-run-out-of-business-hah/579400/3 "2011-04-22T20:35:34Z")
Time for the pony to learn a new trick. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-send-jobs-overseas-youll-be-run-out-of-business-hah/579400/4 "2011-04-22T21:02:58Z")
This is a really shitty situation for Fellowes, and certainly acts as a cautionary tale about doing business in China with Chinese business partners, especially ones with political clout. For those interested in an actual news story and not just a link to another message board, you can read about it [here](http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/china/american-stationary-giant-brought-to-its-knees-in-china-54204.html). More [here](http://www.enewspf.com/latest-news/latest-local/23133-senator-durbin-asks-commerce-secretary-to-help-resolve-itasca-companys-dispute.html). Of course, this one story tells us very little about the more general issue of offshore production or business partnerships with offshore companies. But then again, look who the OP is; i don’t think anyone really expected a sensible, coherent argument. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-send-jobs-overseas-youll-be-run-out-of-business-hah/579400/5 "2011-04-22T21:20:00Z")
Evidently this is not a universal experience. Otherwise the trend would have stopped a long time ago. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-send-jobs-overseas-youll-be-run-out-of-business-hah/579400/6 "2011-04-22T21:23:37Z")
Sometimes doing business in China is a good idea. Sometimes it is not. Wow. What a revelation. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-send-jobs-overseas-youll-be-run-out-of-business-hah/579400/7 "2011-04-22T22:14:16Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Sometimes doing business in China is a good idea. Sometimes it is not. > > Wow. What a revelation. The question of rule of law, is not a “sometimes its a good idea, sometimes its not” The biggest impediment to China becoming an economic powerhouse was its lack of rule of law. It got Most Favored Nation status in 1980 and STILL noone would do business with China except on a cash and carry basis. There were routinely problems with Chinese banks reneging on letters of credit and Chinese exporters shorting their shipments. At some point they got smart and realized that they could make a lot more money by enforcing rule of law rather than letting their people rip off their trading partners. And this started the flood foreign investment. If people lose confidence in China’s rule of law, it will be a bloodbath for everyone there. As people pull out, Chinese partners will be more inclined to pull this sort of crap which will lead more people to pulling out. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-send-jobs-overseas-youll-be-run-out-of-business-hah/579400/8 "2011-04-22T22:16:54Z")
American Apparel seems to be doing just fine. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-send-jobs-overseas-youll-be-run-out-of-business-hah/579400/9 "2011-04-22T22:22:01Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > Yeah, free traders despise me. But if I cared what y’all free trade fanatics thought then I wouldn’t be posting this, now would I? Aww, it’s okay, little schnookums. No one here hates lil’ ol’ you. Sounds like you need a great big snuggly-bunny huggums!! Come on, everyone, let’s shower Jackie here with huggles!!! {{{{{{Le Jacquelope}}}}}} ---
**Author:** ![glilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/48db29/32.png) [@glilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glilly)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-send-jobs-overseas-youll-be-run-out-of-business-hah/579400/10 "2011-04-23T01:01:02Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > American Apparel seems to be doing just fine. Not so fine – from yesterday: [Canadian investors rescue American Apparel](http://m.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/canadian-investors-rescue-american-apparel/article1996130/?service=mobile) ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-send-jobs-overseas-youll-be-run-out-of-business-hah/579400/11 "2011-04-23T03:01:24Z")
A lot of corporations go abroad to escape regulation and environmental laws. It is not all cheap labor. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-send-jobs-overseas-youll-be-run-out-of-business-hah/579400/12 "2011-04-23T03:25:15Z")
So one example of a company having issues that were completely unrelated to your original argument vindicates you? ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-send-jobs-overseas-youll-be-run-out-of-business-hah/579400/13 "2011-04-23T04:11:48Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > This is a really shitty situation for Fellowes, and certainly acts as a cautionary tale about doing business in China with Chinese business partners, especially ones with political clout. > > For those interested in an actual news story and not just a link to another message board, you can read about it [here](http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/china/american-stationary-giant-brought-to-its-knees-in-china-54204.html). More [here](http://www.enewspf.com/latest-news/latest-local/23133-senator-durbin-asks-commerce-secretary-to-help-resolve-itasca-companys-dispute.html). > > Of course, this one story tells us very little about the more general issue of offshore production or business partnerships with offshore companies. But then again, look who the OP is; i don’t think anyone really expected a sensible, coherent argument. You mean “offshoring production to China can get you run out of business even faster than if you don’t” isn’t coherent enough for you? Or maybe your reading skills just suck that much? I’m surprised you free market droogies didn’t wuss out again and froth out another bullshit claim that the article somehow contradicted me. As limp-wristed as your response was this time, at least it was something new! Hell that might have even been _gasp_ an original thought! > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The question of rule of law, is not a “sometimes its a good idea, sometimes its not” Zing. That one also flew right over these guys’ heads. > [@](#): > > The biggest impediment to China becoming an economic powerhouse was its lack of rule of law. It got Most Favored Nation status in 1980 and STILL noone would do business with China except on a cash and carry basis. There were routinely problems with Chinese banks reneging on letters of credit and Chinese exporters shorting their shipments. China thinks it can become a powerhouse by bullying everyone else. Reneging on letters of credit, stealing intellectual property, all of this comes from their belief that they have the world over a barrel. Oh, and Zoid? Really? You think this is isolated to one company? Google “intellectual property theft China” and prepare to get shocked. > **[The Epoch Times | Breaking News, Latest News, World News and Videos](https://www.theepochtimes.com/)** > > Get the latest breaking news, in-depth reporting, and insightful analysis on a wide range of topics, including politics, culture, and world events | The Epoch Times is a trusted source for real news and information that is free from influence and... > [@](#): > > According to a Jan. 15 article in Germany’s Handelsblatt (Commerce paper), Beijing will launch Chinese Compulsory Certification (CCC) regulations in May 2010 that will require companies to submit their IC design blueprints or software source codes in exchange for approval to enter the Chinese market. [http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/12/business/economy/12leonhardt.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/12/business/economy/12leonhardt.html) > [@](#): > > For the United States, the No. 1 problem with China’s economy is probably intellectual property theft. Technology companies, for example, continue to notice Chinese government agencies downloading software updates for programs they have never bought, at least not legally. > > No wonder China has become the world’s second-largest market for computer hardware sales — but is only the eighth-largest for software sales. > > Next on the list, say people who work in China or do business there, is the myriad protectionist barriers China has put up. These barriers make this country’s recent efforts at “buy American” protectionism look minor league. In some cases, Beijing has insisted that products sold in China must not only be made there but be conceived and designed there. The policy goes by the name “indigenous innovation.” ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-send-jobs-overseas-youll-be-run-out-of-business-hah/579400/14 "2011-04-23T04:30:44Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > Oh, and Zoid? Really? You think this is isolated to one company? I never said intellectual property theft in China was limited to a single instance, I said you only provided one example - and it still has nothing to do with your original premise and does nothing to support you original position. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-send-jobs-overseas-youll-be-run-out-of-business-hah/579400/15 "2011-04-23T04:43:46Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Sometimes doing business in China is a good idea. Sometimes it is not. > > Wow. What a revelation. Yes, Almond Joy has had success, Mounds has not. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-send-jobs-overseas-youll-be-run-out-of-business-hah/579400/16 "2011-04-26T04:04:48Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > I never said intellectual property theft in China was limited to a single instance, I said you only provided one example - and it still has nothing to do with your original premise and does nothing to support you original position. Maybe you didn’t comprehend my original position? I said, let this incident serve as a warning to people who think you can’t be put out of business by sending your manufacturing overseas. Let this incident serve as a warning to those who buy into the “if we don’t use cheaper labor overseas to do our work we’ll be taken out by another competitor who does”. My original position was quite specifically spoken: that _you can be put out of business by another competitor specifically because you offshored production._ The example I posted showed exactly how this happens in reality. I don’t see why I should post more examples - seeing as that people on the Straight Dope can’t even comprehend clearly spoken words and they routinely engage in spin doctoring and go through the most contorted gyrations to claim that any cite that discredits “free trade” doesn’t mean what it means. It’s like Newspeak University in here. When it comes to economics the posters at the Straight Dope are as insular, ignorant and uncreative as any group of people who manage to learn how to breathe and walk straight. One of these days, soon, what few people remain in support of offshoring are going to wake up, go outside and realize there’s _no country for you._ Ideological extinction is not too big a word for what that mindset is facing. ---
**Author:** ![Walmarticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Walmarticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walmarticus)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-send-jobs-overseas-youll-be-run-out-of-business-hah/579400/17 "2011-04-26T04:28:12Z")
When I’m president of my own Mormon super-galaxy, I’m going to sic my goon squad on the OP and shove my throbbing comparative advantage down his cite’s throat (I’ll even hire someone to read it thoroughly for me). Fuck protectionism in every form. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-send-jobs-overseas-youll-be-run-out-of-business-hah/579400/18 "2011-04-26T04:43:42Z")
> [@Walmarticus](#): > > When I’m president of my own Mormon super-galaxy, I’m going to sic my goon squad on the OP and shove my throbbing comparative advantage down his cite’s throat (I’ll even hire someone to read it thoroughly for me). Fuck protectionism in every form. Will your super-galaxy have a strawman as big as Le Jac’s? > [@Le Jacquelope](#): > > I said, let this incident serve as a warning to people who think you can’t be put out of business by sending your manufacturing overseas. Is there really anyone out there that thinks that? ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-send-jobs-overseas-youll-be-run-out-of-business-hah/579400/19 "2011-04-26T04:45:59Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > Yeah, free traders despise me. It is not just the free traders. Slee ---
**Author:** ![Walmarticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Walmarticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walmarticus)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-send-jobs-overseas-youll-be-run-out-of-business-hah/579400/20 "2011-04-26T04:48:52Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Will your super-galaxy have a strawman as big as Le Jac’s? You keep the hell away from my Mormon super-galaxy. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-send-jobs-overseas-youll-be-run-out-of-business-hah/579400.md?page=2)