# If you don't understand taxes, shut the fuck up. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 16, 2008, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-understand-taxes-shut-the-fuck-up/468269 "2008-10-16T21:03:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-understand-taxes-shut-the-fuck-up/468269/41 "2008-10-17T11:01:13Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Cross my fingers, I hope not. I don’t think that Obama (or any president for that matter) can really effect things all THAT much one way or another. They have a limited amount of things (or damage) that they can do. Raising the top income tax rate a few % is the least of your worries. Nobel Prize winning economist Paul Krugman would disagree (read The Conscience of a Liberal). I think we have seen a 20 year experiment that shows that trickle down economics leads to bad outcomes. I’m optimistic that we are finally getting to the point that we don’t run from Rovian charges of “class warfare,” but instead reapond with “Fuck yeah, and it’s about time we fought back.” ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-understand-taxes-shut-the-fuck-up/468269/42 "2008-10-17T11:11:27Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Originally Posted by Benjamin Franklin > When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic. Seriously, coming from you… that’s like a freakin’ acid bath of irony. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-understand-taxes-shut-the-fuck-up/468269/43 "2008-10-17T11:32:28Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I have a proposal for a pledge for all Republicans. If you want to cut taxes on lower spending, agree to cut spending first before lowering taxes, and wait a budget year to prove it. Worst that can happen is we can reduce the deficit or even get a surplus. Agreed? The way it has been done is to cut taxes first based on unrealistic spending cuts. Amen. There has never been a Republican yet who delivered on the spending cuts they promised. Why should we let them eat their dessert before they finish their vegetables? ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-understand-taxes-shut-the-fuck-up/468269/44 "2008-10-17T13:25:21Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > How many times do I have to say that spent and spent and spent is the PROBLEM, regardless of the party, before you’ll believe me? > WE NEED TO CUT ALL GOVERNMENT SPEBNDING BUY 1/3 or maybe 1/2 I agree that we need to cut spending. However–and this is the important bit–right now, we can’t even pay for half the things the government spends on with our current tax rates. Thus the reason we need to raise taxes. It’s not like it’s impossible. There was a surplus while Clinton was in office, which was only a decade ago. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-understand-taxes-shut-the-fuck-up/468269/45 "2008-10-17T13:28:41Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Four years from now, if Obama is the president, we are going to be deep, deep in a depression. Some folks have wanted to bet me that on my reality based outlook, this is a bet I’ll make. I’ll pay the first three people who respond to me at weirddave at gmail dot com $10 each if the stock market is above 14,000 on November 4th, 2012, assuming Obama is elected. So if the Dow doesn’t go up by %56 in four year, we must be in a deep, deep depression? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-understand-taxes-shut-the-fuck-up/468269/46 "2008-10-17T14:11:27Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > I have no realistic hope that any politician will cut government before this nation goes into complete free fall, but McCain at least makes noises that he recognizes that needs to be done. Obama doesn’t even try, he just promises everyone everything to get elected. To my shame as an American, it’s working. Wait, so you believe there is zero chance that either candidate will cut spending, but you’re stumping for McCain because he pretends he will? > [@](#): > > Problem here is the straitjacket that everyone puts themselves in to WRT party. George Bush is a Republican president, but he’s been very bad at instituting any Republican or conservative ideals. It all gets broken down to party without looking at substance. Are you quite sure it’s everyone else that’s wearing the party straightjackets? > [@](#): > > In the famous Joe the Plumber clip, Obama was caught out and answered honestly, no spin, no nothing. “I think when you spread the wealth around, it’s good for everybody”. That’s truly what he believes. The government has to spread the wealth around. It’s anathema to what this country was founded on, and a recipe for disaster, but that’s what it looks like we (Americans) are going to chose. For shame! Obama was asked a question, and answered _honestly_! How dare he? And what’s worse- his answer was a reflection of more-or-less universal postwar fiscal policy! How irresponsible! > [@](#): > > Amen brother. I have an in to Canadian citizenship, my wife is Canadian, and I’ve been seriously considering it. You guys are a bit more socialist than I like, but you’re pulling back from that, Canadians have always been eminently practical, and the fact that you guys run your country on a budget and STICK TO IT is immensely appealing. Well, as long as we all agree it’s okay to run to Canada if your side loses. Pet an Eskimo for me. > [@Weirddave](#): > > George Bush is a Republican president, but he’s been very bad at instituting any Republican or conservative ideals. It all gets broken down to party without looking at substance. Excellent point - Bush didn’t work out so well, so we’ll throw him out. Not representative of Republican ideals, etc. Fair enough. Okay, so, George Bush Sr.- he was a Republican President! He must have cut spending and balanced the federal budget, right? Wait, what’s that? Increased taxes _and_ increased spending? Oh. Well, he’s Bush Jr.'s dad… what did you expect? Alright, how about Reagan? Now _that_ was a Republican President. Surely he balanced the budget. He didn’t? He ran up bigger relative deficits than anyone? No! I don’t believe it! * * * Alright, let me see if I’ve got this straight. Balanced budgets are good. Deficit spending is bad. The last three Republican Presidents ran massive deficits. The last Democratic President ran a surplus. Therefore, vote Republican. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-understand-taxes-shut-the-fuck-up/468269/47 "2008-10-17T14:22:56Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Wait, so you believe there is zero chance that either candidate will cut spending, but you’re stumping for McCain because he pretends he will? More than one poster on this board has said something similar. Personally, I think you need to relinquish your username to those that deserve it more. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-understand-taxes-shut-the-fuck-up/468269/48 "2008-10-17T14:41:34Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Nothing gets across a writer’s solid grasp on economics like a sentence in allcaps with a spelling error and an incorrect homonym. > > 😃 How about a writer’s frustration? Typos? Shit, that should be my middle name. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-understand-taxes-shut-the-fuck-up/468269/49 "2008-10-17T15:20:37Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I’m optimistic that we are finally getting to the point that we don’t run from Rovian charges of “class warfare,” but instead reapond with “Fuck yeah, and it’s about time we fought back.” You are a sick individual. Go ahead and live your life eaten up by jealousy about what someone else has. Me, I’d rather live my life working towards what I can get. Fight back? How about you get to work. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-understand-taxes-shut-the-fuck-up/468269/50 "2008-10-17T15:23:09Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > Seriously, coming from you… that’s like a freakin’ acid bath of irony. Could you explain this please? I have always and consistently said that the size of government is the problem. Where is the irony? ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-understand-taxes-shut-the-fuck-up/468269/51 "2008-10-17T15:26:41Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > So if the Dow doesn’t go up by %56 in four year, we must be in a deep, deep depression? :dubious: The Dow was there less than a year ago. Try “go back” instead of “go up”. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-understand-taxes-shut-the-fuck-up/468269/52 "2008-10-17T15:30:23Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > I agree that we need to cut spending. However–and this is the important bit–right now, we can’t even pay for half the things the government spends on with our current tax rates. Thus the reason we need to raise taxes. > > It’s not like it’s impossible. There was a surplus while Clinton was in office, which was only a decade ago. Good fucking Christ. You admit that we need to cut spending. You admit that the government can’t pay for all it does now. However you conclusion is…raise taxes? Are you insane? How about staying where you started: CUT FUCKING SPENDING. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-understand-taxes-shut-the-fuck-up/468269/53 "2008-10-17T15:34:14Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > The Dow was there less than a year ago. Try “go back” instead of “go up”. Regardless of whether or not it’s been there before it’s still a 56% increase over today’s index. That is, of course, assuming it hasn’t plunged another couple hundred points while I typed this. Which, of course, is totally irrelevant anyway, since the markets are not representative of the economy and the Dow is the least representative index of all. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-understand-taxes-shut-the-fuck-up/468269/54 "2008-10-17T15:34:19Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Good fucking Christ. You admit that we need to cut spending. You admit that the government can’t pay for all it does now. However you conclusion is…raise taxes? Are you insane? How about staying where you started: CUT FUCKING SPENDING. You are assuming a false dichotomy. Perhaps you didn’t read anything else I said once I revealed myself to be on the OTHERSIDEOMG!!!111ELEVENTY!!! I want the governmnet to BOTH cut spending AND raise taxes. Why is that so hard to comprehend? ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-understand-taxes-shut-the-fuck-up/468269/55 "2008-10-17T15:55:23Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Wait, so you believe there is zero chance that either candidate will cut spending, but you’re stumping for McCain because he pretends he will? No, I believe that McCain’s proposed increase in spending is less than Obama’s, and McCain has at least acknowledged that spending needs to be cut. Obama hasn’t. My cynicism keeps me from believing that either one will do it, but if I think spending is the problem, why should I vote for the candidate whose whole platform is “Spend more!” against the guy who at least recognizes the problem? > [@](#): > > Are you quite sure it’s everyone else that’s wearing the party straightjackets? Since party matters not a wit to me, I’m pretty sure. > [@](#): > > For shame! Obama was asked a question, and answered _honestly_! How dare he? And what’s worse- his answer was a reflection of more-or-less universal postwar fiscal policy! How irresponsible! You misunderstand. Not for shame, I applaud him for finally admitting what many of us have been saying for months. He’s finally told the truth. It’s just a damn shame that this didn’t happen in August when it might have made a difference. > [@](#): > > Well, as long as we all agree it’s okay to run to Canada if your side loses. Pet an Eskimo for me. I’m not considering “running to Canada” because my side loses, I’m considering (and note, just considering, I probably won’t because Canada’s economy is so enmeshed in ours that it’s going to crash right along with us) running to Canada because I think Barak Obama is going to be a disaster for the United States. > [@](#): > > Excellent point - Bush didn’t work out so well, so we’ll throw him out. Not representative of Republican ideals, etc. Fair enough. > > Okay, so, George Bush Sr.- he was a Republican President! He must have cut spending and balanced the federal budget, right? Wait, what’s that? Increased taxes _and_ increased spending? Oh. Well, he’s Bush Jr.'s dad… what did you expect? > > Alright, how about Reagan? Now _that_ was a Republican President. Surely he balanced the budget. He didn’t? He ran up bigger relative deficits than anyone? No! I don’t believe it! > > * * * > > Alright, let me see if I’ve got this straight. Balanced budgets are good. Deficit spending is bad. The last three Republican Presidents ran massive deficits. The last Democratic President ran a surplus. Therefore, vote Republican. Again, all you seem to care about is party. I don’t give a rat’s ass about party. Party schmarty. I am voting based upon what each individual candidate proposes to do. Why is that so hard to understand? As a party, the Republicans have a lot to answer for. The swept into power in '94 on a promise to decrease the size of Government and proceed to be captured by the system and do exactly the opposite. They’ve spent, spent, spent without any rhyme or reason, without any thought for the consequences. I HATE the Republicans for what they’ve done. They claim to be the party of little government and controlled spending, but they are not. Again, it doesn’t matter. I am voting for McCain based upon his platform, not his party. I don’t know how much clearer than that I can say it, and all of the attempts by people here to tattoo me with the failings of the Republican party are for naught. they can try, you can try, anyone can try but it’s a foolish exercise because of one thing: I am not a Republican. How hard is that to understand? ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-understand-taxes-shut-the-fuck-up/468269/56 "2008-10-17T16:00:27Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > You are assuming a false dichotomy. Perhaps you didn’t read anything else I said once I revealed myself to be on the OTHERSIDEOMG!!!111ELEVENTY!!! I want the governmnet to BOTH cut spending AND raise taxes. Why is that so hard to comprehend? I apologize if I misunderstood, I respond to posts and not posters, if you said something different before I missed it. As to you final question…Why is it so hard to comprehend?.. I hadn’t considered that you might want to cut spending and raise taxes, but to me at least that’s a baffling position to take. Why? Why raise taxes if you cut spending? Cutting spending solves the problem, why throttle people with new taxes on top of that? Seriously, why? Please explain it to me, I’d like to understand where you’re coming from. ---
**Author:** ![stretch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@stretch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stretch)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-understand-taxes-shut-the-fuck-up/468269/57 "2008-10-17T16:06:46Z")
I’m not **pedescribe** , but … No matter how much we reduce our spending, we still we need to pay our current debts and our future obligations. Which means we need tax money, cuz the people are the US and they have to pay for all the shit our lovely representatives have purchased. To get our house in order, we will need to increase our income—because our current debts and obligations demand more money than we are throwing at them. Let me repeat that: Whether spending is increased or not, our current debts and obligations demand more money. I happen to agree with Obama, we are better off if the wealth is spread around somewhat. And though I’d prefer if the government weren’t doing the spreading, we haven’t come up with a better way. At least the government tries to be somewhat equitable, unlike the market or private charity. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-understand-taxes-shut-the-fuck-up/468269/58 "2008-10-17T16:13:26Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > I apologize if I misunderstood, I respond to posts and not posters, if you said something different before I missed it. As to you final question…Why is it so hard to comprehend?.. I hadn’t considered that you might want to cut spending and raise taxes, but to me at least that’s a baffling position to take. Why? Why raise taxes if you cut spending? Cutting spending solves the problem, why throttle people with new taxes on top of that? Seriously, why? Please explain it to me, I’d like to understand where you’re coming from. Because, while there are some things I’m willing to cut (like excessive military budget, some education plans, “pork”, etc.), the sum total of the parts of the government that I do support exceeds the revenue from taxes right now. I figure, meet halfway. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-understand-taxes-shut-the-fuck-up/468269/59 "2008-10-17T16:24:33Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > I am voting for McCain based upon his platform, not his party. I don’t know how much clearer than that I can say it, and all of the attempts by people here to tattoo me with the failings of the Republican party are for naught. they can try, you can try, anyone can try but it’s a foolish exercise because of one thing: I am not a Republican. How hard is that to understand? It doesn’t matter if you’re a Republican or not. You’re voting for a Republican based on something they’ve consistently promised to do but failed to do. The question is, what makes you think McCain is any different? He accepted Bush’s endorsement. His campaign staff are all Republican lifers, and most of them worked for Bush in '00 and '04. That suggests his cabinet will be much the same. What evidence is there that _he’s_ not more of the same? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-understand-taxes-shut-the-fuck-up/468269/60 "2008-10-17T16:27:51Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > I’m not considering “running to Canada” because my side loses, I’m considering (and note, just considering, I probably won’t because Canada’s economy is so enmeshed in ours that it’s going to crash right along with us) running to Canada because I think Barak Obama is going to be a disaster for the United States. Ha! With your luck you’ll get here just when we elect Jack Layton’s NDP government in Ottawa that will make Obama look like Franco’s long lost grandson. I really do think that you’re overstating how bad things will get if you elect Obama vs. McCain. We’re heading for a recession (or are in one) and it will be a tough few years no matter who is in the White House. As others have pointed out, the past several administrations have shown that Democrats tend to be more fiscally responsible. You can argue the details, but you can’t show any proof that Democratic administrations have led to noticeably poorer financial outcomes for the country. Take a deep breath. Things will be OK [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-understand-taxes-shut-the-fuck-up/468269.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-understand-taxes-shut-the-fuck-up/468269.md?page=4)