# If you don't want to do "team-building" exercises **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 26, 2010, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-want-to-do-team-building-exercises/555148 "2010-09-26T22:42:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-want-to-do-team-building-exercises/555148/121 "2010-10-01T18:42:35Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I don’t think a lot of you get the “point” of teambuilding. I think “you” don’t “get” the “point” that many “teambuilding” exercises don’t actually “work” the way they’re “supposed to.” ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-want-to-do-team-building-exercises/555148/122 "2010-10-01T18:44:28Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > > [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > > > Personally, \*I’m \*looking forward to Thursday afternoon, where we’re going to shut the office down as much as we can around three p.m., order in Chinese, drink, have cake (gluten free for our coworker with Celiac’s!) and ice cream, etc. > > And on Friday we’re doing a salsa-tasting contest with carne asada. Nobody has to join in on our “events,” not even on potlucks, and we don’t even begrudge anyone who enjoys without contributing. Not everyone participates and so far as I know, there’s no mental checkmark for not doing so unless not participating is a symptom of a surly attitude in general. The salsa contest is going pretty awesomely, by the way. 🆒 Except that my favorite salsa isn’t even close to winning. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-want-to-do-team-building-exercises/555148/123 "2010-10-01T18:55:56Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > I reiterate: unless you work for yourself, your boss owns your time 9AM-5PM, Monday-Friday. I have so far been spared having to work for anyone with that attitude, and Og willing, I never will. There’s a job description and there was an interview process, I have a pretty clear of what my job is. Would you happily wash your boss’ car? He owns your time and all… ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-want-to-do-team-building-exercises/555148/124 "2010-10-01T19:09:26Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > The salsa contest is going pretty awesomely, by the way. Our shindig yesterday was great. The only downside is that all but one of us ended up staying really late… including the time that we were also eating lunch, we were drinking for almost seven hours straight. ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-want-to-do-team-building-exercises/555148/125 "2010-10-01T19:13:03Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I don’t think a lot of you get the “point” of teambuilding. Have you ever been on a school sports team or joined a fraternity? Both unpaid activities that people do out of their own volition. People seek out a sports team and work to engender team spirit because they enjoy playing the game. Very few people enjoy their work to that degree. > [@](#): > > Companies want these sort of cultures because if people have those sorts of connections they work harder, they are less inclined to leave for more money and they make the company more profitable. That, indeed, is the point. To foster in the minds of the easily led the same sort of loyalty to the company as they may feel for a sports team or fraternity. You’re surprised that people feel resentful when their employer tries to manipulate their emotions that blatantly? Loyalty to an employer is earned in the course of doing business, not installed by being forced to run an obstacle course while shooting paintball guns or whatever the latest trend is. Workplace culture grows, it can’t be enforced. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-want-to-do-team-building-exercises/555148/126 "2010-10-01T22:06:16Z")
> [@Spiny\_Norman](#): > > Both unpaid activities that people do out of their own volition. People seek out a sports team and work to engender team spirit because they enjoy playing the game. Very few people enjoy their work to that degree. I know. The point is companies want you to enjoy your work to that same degree. This seems especially true in tech companies for some reason. They create an almost evangelical cultlike environment. I dare say that team building exercises are akin to fraternity pledging or military training where the goal is to bond a bunch of people together through adversity. In the case of team building, it’s the adversity of doing something inane and stupid. And it “works” by either getting you to pretend to like it and shut your mouth or frustrating you until you leave. It’s all part of this whole super-duper-positive thinking dot-com MBA corporate management “entrepreneur” “cult of awesomeness” mentality. Basically the idea is that if you have a “great idea” and “super awesome people” you can do anything. Forget fundamentals. Forget analysis. Forget reality. If you can believe it you can achieve it. And the flip side of that is anyone who spreads doubt or rationality or raises any potential issues is looked on as a “negative performer” or “not a team player”. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-want-to-do-team-building-exercises/555148/127 "2010-10-01T22:47:47Z")
> [@Spiny\_Norman](#): > > \ > That, indeed, is the point. To foster in the minds of the easily led the same sort of loyalty to the company as they may feel for a sports team or fraternity. You’re surprised that people feel resentful when their employer tries to manipulate their emotions that blatantly?\ Agreed. > [@msmith537](#): > > \ > It’s all part of this whole super-duper-positive thinking dot-com MBA corporate management “entrepreneur” “cult of awesomeness” mentality. Basically the idea is that if you have a “great idea” and “super awesome people” you can do anything. Forget fundamentals. Forget analysis. Forget reality. If you can believe it you can achieve it. And the flip side of that is anyone who spreads doubt or rationality or raises any potential issues is looked on as a “negative performer” or “not a team player”. I’m not sure of the point you’re making for this thread - we’re calling the bullshit corporate culture bullshit, and you seem to be saying the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2010, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-want-to-do-team-building-exercises/555148/128 "2010-10-02T02:11:57Z")
I think **msmith537** is offering an explanation of how come this “corporate culture” teambuilding froofraw got going, as opposed to presuming it’s just some premeditated BS a random pointyhair cooked up with no rational basis: > [@](#): > > … the goal is to bond a bunch of people together […] it “works” by either getting you to pretend to like it and shut your mouth or frustrating you until you leave And then, pointing out that while creating primary-group-spirit may be an important part of the mission, in modern managerology it often overlooks the perhaps more important goal of having a team that’s actually _competent_ at the mission: > [@](#): > > It’s all part of this whole super-duper-positive thinking dot-com MBA corporate management “entrepreneur” “cult of awesomeness” mentality. Basically the idea is that if you have a “great idea” and “super awesome people” you can do anything. Forget fundamentals. Forget analysis. Forget reality. If you can believe it you can achieve it. And the flip side of that is anyone who spreads doubt or rationality or raises any potential issues is looked on as a “negative performer” or “not a team player”. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2010, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-want-to-do-team-building-exercises/555148/129 "2010-10-02T02:21:03Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I don’t think a lot of you get the “point” of teambuilding. Have you ever been on a school sports team or joined a fraternity? The point of these exercises is that many companies look to establish a strong cultural identity. Wait, I thought the point was rape, alcoholism, and general mayhem… ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2010, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-want-to-do-team-building-exercises/555148/130 "2010-10-02T04:08:11Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > > [@Spiny\_Norman](#): > > > > Both unpaid activities that people do out of their own volition. People seek out a sports team and work to engender team spirit because they enjoy playing the game. Very few people enjoy their work to that degree. > > I know. The point is companies want you to enjoy your work to that same degree. This seems especially true in tech companies for some reason. They create an almost evangelical cultlike environment. > > I dare say that team building exercises are akin to fraternity pledging or military training where the goal is to bond a bunch of people together through adversity. In the case of team building, it’s the adversity of doing something inane and stupid. And it “works” by either getting you to pretend to like it and shut your mouth or frustrating you until you leave. > It’s all part of this whole super-duper-positive thinking dot-com MBA corporate management “entrepreneur” “cult of awesomeness” mentality. Basically the idea is that if you have a “great idea” and “super awesome people” you can do anything. Forget fundamentals. Forget analysis. Forget reality. If you can believe it you can achieve it. And the flip side of that is anyone who spreads doubt or rationality or raises any potential issues is looked on as a “negative performer” or “not a team player”. Of course, the simple action of putting together a competent team, giving the workers clear goals to achieve, and rewarding the workers with money (both in regular pay and in bonuses) when they achieve those goals would forge a much tighter team. But just about anyone could do that, and management needs to justify their own high salaries and bonuses, so they think up stupid games to play instead. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2010, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-want-to-do-team-building-exercises/555148/131 "2010-10-02T04:22:40Z")
If only management understood how little it would take to actually foster a sense of teamwork and loyalty - it’s a little bit heartbreaking that they choose these idiotic antics instead. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2010, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-want-to-do-team-building-exercises/555148/132 "2010-10-02T09:05:46Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > If only management understood how little it would take to actually foster a sense of teamwork and loyalty - it’s a little bit heartbreaking that they choose these idiotic antics instead. I had 2 bosses in around 10 years at 2 different companies that understood that. Their favorite team building exercise was to toss a handfull of menus on the table when we had to do some serious overtime and they picked up the cost of lunch for us. Although Oakleaf Waste Management had absolutely killer Christmas parties. They picked up the cost of the dinner and had open bar, and seriously killer door prizes. The place is closed now, but the favored venue was Joe Blacks in Hartford. Since they laid out so much money on the food, prizes and bar, it was restricted to employees only, no friends/family/dates. I saw the bar tab for one of the parties and it was upwards of $5000 :eek: ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2010, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-want-to-do-team-building-exercises/555148/133 "2010-10-02T16:06:00Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > > [@SteveG1](#): > > > > Almost forgot… > > > > Whoever brought up the thing about it being after hours or on weekends for no pay. Here’s an idea, > > > > Any “boss” who wants to do that, let’s do this. > > > > You and me. Cage match. The rest of the team gets to watch. > > > > How’s that sound? > > Depends… how big are you, and how big is the other guy? May I propose using Angelón (“Big Angel”) or Pachi el Camión (“Frank the Truck”) to represent the peons? I’m not big at all, just average height, but I sure am a dirty one. A few hidden foreign objects, a loaded up boot, a few bites and eye gouges 😉 So who will represent the team builder boss guy? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2010, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-want-to-do-team-building-exercises/555148/134 "2010-10-02T16:10:06Z")
> [@Spiny\_Norman](#): > > That, indeed, is the point. To foster in the minds of the easily led the same sort of loyalty to the company as they may feel for a sports team or fraternity. You’re surprised that people feel resentful when their employer tries to manipulate their emotions that blatantly? That was the POINT of my “stay the fuck out of my head” statement. They don’t belong in there, they have no right to go there, and if they knew what I think of their “games” they would have their poor little feelings hurt. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2010, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-want-to-do-team-building-exercises/555148/135 "2010-10-02T16:18:29Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > So if a manager is looking at two candidates for hiring, promotion, needs to let one go, whatever, do you think he should pick you with your “I don’t care”, “I don’t give a fuck”, “just leave me the fuck alone” attitude or should he pick the other guy who is pleasent and enthusiastic? Pleasant and enthusiastic as in the grinning backstabbing work dumping shit head who sucks the boss’ crank and dumps the work on someone else? That guy? Uh huh. The Yes Man who never actually DOES the work will be the one climbing the ladder, on someone else’s back. > [@msmith537](#): > > I don’t think a lot of you get the “point” of teambuilding. Have you ever been on a school sports team or joined a fraternity? The point of these exercises is that many companies look to establish a strong cultural identity. Part of that is to do these kind of mindless activities as a way for people to do stuff together and connect as part of a shared experience. If you are not connecting with your team or are resistant to their culture, well, getting rid of you is a lot easier than changing the culture. I’ve been on various sports teams - softball, bowling, etc. It was my choice to be there. These were not mindless activities, they were fun and voluntary. Get the difference? > [@msmith537](#): > > Companies want these sort of cultures because if people have those sorts of connections they work harder, they are less inclined to leave for more money and they make the company more profitable. That’s a laugh right there. A company can and will let people go, or shut the entire plant down for money reasons, but they actually expect these people to put that same company above their own best interests, and NOT take better paying jobs? Are you a fucking moron or what? Instead of forced games, these stupid fucks should try some new and exciting outside the box paradigms, like treating workers with a little dignity and respect instead of like disposables to be used up and tossed away, pay them more than the bare minimum it takes to keep them, and give them enough incentive so they have no reason to leave. Dumb ass. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2010, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-want-to-do-team-building-exercises/555148/136 "2010-10-02T16:35:57Z")
1994: Being lectured by drive, 90+ hours a week “my entire life is my job” manager; Him: Where’s your loyalty to this company? Me: Where’s this company’s loyalty to me? Him: :dubious: ☹ Good Point. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2010, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-want-to-do-team-building-exercises/555148/137 "2010-10-02T22:24:11Z")
I get the impression **msmith537** whooshed some people. See the second half of [post #126](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12978742&postcount=126). ---
**Author:** ![WarmNPrickly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@WarmNPrickly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WarmNPrickly)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2010, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-want-to-do-team-building-exercises/555148/138 "2010-10-02T22:39:55Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > . > > > [@SteveG1](#): > > > > I don’t think a lot of you get the “point” of teambuilding. Have you ever been on a school sports team or joined a fraternity? The point of these exercises is that many companies look to establish a strong cultural identity. Part of that is to do these kind of mindless activities as a way for people to do stuff together and connect as part of a shared experience. If you are not connecting with your team or are resistant to their culture, well, getting rid of you is a lot easier than changing the culture. > > > > Companies want these sort of cultures because if people have those sorts of connections they work harder, they are less inclined to leave for more money and they make the company more profitable. > > Couldn’t have put it better if I tried! 😃 Do you have any evidence beyond anecdote that these exercises actually do what you want. Does it occur to you that after weeding out the nonconformists, you are left with a bunch of yes-men that couldn’t develop a new idea in a hundred years? I can assure that weeding out the employees that don’t fit in will not benefit a technical field. On the contrary, it is often the bitter psychological battles that result in extra work just to prove how much better you are than your jackass coworker that kisses up to all the upper management without actually achieving anything. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2010, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-want-to-do-team-building-exercises/555148/139 "2010-10-02T22:50:54Z")
_See? That’s the kind of thing we’re discussing. DO people want fire that can be fitted nasally?_ In other words, this is the crap corporate world you get when you allow Marketting types to run the show. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2010, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-want-to-do-team-building-exercises/555148/140 "2010-10-02T23:02:21Z")
> [@FE3O4ENAIL](#): > > You want to build a team? > 1.Get together people who consider themselves professionals, and have shown they are by past accomplishments. > 2.Give them clear goals and the resources to accomplish same. > 3. profit And, surprise, they’ll do their own team-building! You’ll notice they’re meeting each other at a bar after work, or hitting a movie together. Or helping each other move, or throwing one of the “team” a birthday cocktail party! I wasn’t surprised at first, when, one Monday morning, Tamara was laughing at how Zeph’s shoes got swiped on Saturday night. Then Enrique came in and mentioned that he had a party where there were shoes stolen. “Wow. Synchronicity. Weird.” I thought. Then Deke mentioned that he’d been in on a huge birthday party that Tamara had thrown for Zeph (at Enrique’s condo) because she found out his roommates weren’t going to. Wow. Four of my key people planned a party together. And I didn’t have to plan any “motivational” activities! (Maybe it wasn’t a perfect situation: I didn’t get invited. But that’s fine – they’re all half my age, and I’m sure they bonded better without me) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-want-to-do-team-building-exercises/555148.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-dont-want-to-do-team-building-exercises/555148.md?page=8)