It looks like you deliberately misquoted what I said. I think you need to fix it.
It looks like he whooshed me, big time.
That stuff that is “listed” under my name, is not my words. My words if anything, called bullshit on this sort of stuff, and vehemently so.
It’s due to clumsy editing of the automatic multi-quote feature. Reporting the post(s) will likely result in a mod editing it for proper attribution. (It will help if you can tell the mod who the post should be attributed to.)
Reported, per your advice, Frank.
Post 120 references post 119, and SNAFUs the attribution. I’m including my opinion that etv did not misquote maliciously.
Appologies to you then. It was certainly *etv78* that I was addressing. I hadn’t followed your trail in this thread enough to know your angle.
Loyalty AND RESPECT have to go both ways…if only one party is giving loyalty and respect to another party which doesn’t return it, then sooner or later the party of the first part is gonna wise up, and either not give loyalty and respect, or find another opening where they get loyalty and respect. Note that “respect” includes paying a person a fair wage or salary for what s/he’s doing.
Yes, and respect is not being shown if you get the all too common “if you don’t like it get the fuck out” either.
As a manager (one of the reasons I’m not anymore), I can’t give you loyalty. I don’t know when we will need to cut payroll to keep making payments on our debt and maintain the provisions in our debt covenants because revenue has tanked. That isn’t something I can provide. To provide loyalty is outside my control - and in the terms of upper management, would give our business a terminal disease.
I can’t promise you regular raises. Even regular cost of living increases. For similar reasons. Its possible our industry will be in decline when the general economy is getting better. To continue to employ people for as long as possible, I have to use the resources I have carefully - while perhaps investing in a new industry - or maybe not.
In turn, I really don’t expect loyalty from you. Not in the “go down with the ship” sense. I’m not giving the company that sort of loyalty myself. When I did manage, I was honestly delighted when my staff found better opportunities. Delighted for them - even if it did mean that I and the rest of the staff would spend at least several months screwed.
But what msmith alluded to upthread is also true. I’ve made the layoff list. And attitude counts for a lot. SOMETIMES, it counts more than competence. I’d rather have a competent person with a great attitude than someone exceptional at his job skills that no one wants to work with.
What I wanted from my employees was a short term loyalty - an “I’m going to do this job well, and have a good attitude about it, for as long as I’m here. I’m not going to sit in the cafeteria and whine about my job. I’m going to be pleasant to my coworkers. I’m going to get my tasks done without arguing about them. I’m going to trust that upper management is making - for the most part - decent decisions and has more information at their fingertips than I do. And if I can’t do this, I should leave.”
That good attitude thing is just like sincerity.
Once you can fake that, the rest is easy. There are plenty of people who will show wonderful attitude and smile and wave and suck your dick if you ask. Why are they so fucking cheerful? because they’ve got you fooled.
They are grinning because you are rewarding them while they play you for a sucker. They aren’t working, they are either “deferring” it, dumping it on someone else (most common scenario), or some other shell game.
Think on this. Have you ever had people who hire in, pleasant, cooperative, etc. Over the years they change. They do their job, and do it quietly. However they never get the recognition, the promotions or the bonuses. Those go to Mister Smiley instead. The quiet one starts ti change, because he was the one actually doing Smiley’s work.
Bet you didn’t think about that, did you. We have a Smiley where I work, a real useless son of a bitch. This asshole never did an honest bit of work in his live, he is famous for dumping it on others. We got some sort of project, to estimate hours and cost for a project (one that was already completed). We had a time suspense to get it done. We spent THREE MONTHS wasting time because this mother fucker appointed himself team lead and wanted to “get an understanding” of the task. I began to notice that no one’s “input” was being used or even considered, and yet the clock was ticking. I personally noticed that he was expecting me to be his fucking personal clerk typist. THEN HE WENT ON VACATION for a week, right in the middle of this.
I talked it over with my Tech Lead, my legit boss. He went through the roof, and rightly so. His words were “You’re not his fucking secretary”. His words.
Eventually, we had a meeting with “the customers”. Shit Head started the meeting talking about ho hard HE had worked on this thing. Uh huh.
Anyhw, about 2 weeks after that meeting there was another “get together”. I made some suggestions that were rudely dismissed with that “what are you fucking stupid” look. I was told to type up a spreadsheet for Smiley Guy. So I asked “what is my purpose here”. No anser. I asked “am I here as an engineer or a secretary”. I said “I am not your secretary” and he started screaming. I told him to do his own typing, with the words “I’m not your God damn secretary”.
The son of a bitch then went to the boss demanding that I get disciplinary action for defying him. And he’s not a fucking boss with any authority, just a wannabe tyrant who had his feathers ruffled.
So Dangeroas, I know what’s behind that so called “good attitude” when a gullible or stupid or incompetent or uninterested boss see the real shit. Attitude counts, my fucking ass. You should see the attitude behind the scenes when the show is over instead.
There’s typos because I am annoyed. Deal with it.
[quote=“WarmNPrickly, post:138, topic:555148”]
That’s a fair question, but I’m wondering about the other side as well. Do the ideas offered in this thread, such as “just give us the money” work any better than what’s cynically being called mandatory fun? If team building was really as simple as people are making it out to be I think somebody would’ve done it by now and sold the book rights.
Money isn’t the holy grail of motivation in the workplace and I fail to see the link between handing out raises and building a team. Some academics claim that money (beyond the point of economic distress) is a poor motivator for employees that do work that requires a brain.
Personally, I dislike working with people who feel that the company is trying to screw them all the time and who can’t get behind any sort of company-sponsored fun, mandatory or no. Sure, there are economic realities at play, but sometimes I wish they’d finally take the plunge and open their useless arts and crafts shop or whatever it is they really want to do.
I actually haven’t responded very well to the post I quoted… maybe if someone mailed me a check I’d do better…
With extra-added tongue action, I’m thinking…
I feel like adding, it seems to me that what is rejected may be actually inept team-building. As mentioned by **msmith537 ** the ideal is to create an esprit de corps, to create primary-group bonds, and to do so promptly at the company’s convenience because it can’t afford to wait for the feeling to spontaneously grow; as the latter comment in those same posts indicates, due to time and resource constraints that ideal devolves into applying pressure to make them at least perform a ritual to pretend to play along to get along, or make them leave for somewhere they’re less miserable.
When people fail to respond positively to this, then inept management thinks it’s because they are ingrates who don’t know they should be on their knees thanking God they have jobs at all. And they continue to try the same strategies.
Many of the people in this board and this thread are temperamentally disposed to NOT want to “play” just because someone with power over us wants us to. We’re task-oriented, we’ll do excellent work at what you hired us for, but the development of any personal bond of caring for the company and the rest of the staff will happen as a natural progression of events in which both parties reinforce one another’s benefit in the relationship. Not on command. Not “because I said so”.
Which however should *not *not preclude us from maintaining a cordial disposition and attitude towards coworkers and customers, and not being disruptive. This does not mean submitting passively to the proverbial workplace sociopath as described by SteveG1, either. Again, *inept *management is what nurtures the workplace sociopath, because THEY can’t tell phony from real dedication to the work.
Inept management is what makes people “feel that the company is trying to screw them all the time”. If the message from above is “submit and fake playing along or else we’ll make you miserable until you leave”, it DOES feel like they are just out to rub your face in it.
Honestly, what many of us call loyalty “from” the company is merely that we be given a fair deal according to our skills and performance; that we be able to tell that decisions are not capricious; and that it be acknowledged we have lives. Heck, we know the company will make decisions in its economic interest but we want to see and feel that they care about how those decisions will impact us, even if what has to be done has to be has to be done.
Many people worry about their weight. But instead of exercising regularly and making more sensible food choices, which is what most people learn in high school Health classes, they’ll buy just about ANY book that promises a new exciting diet which consists of oranges, hamburger patties, and cabbage, and an exercise device which promises to slenderize the tummy and butt and thighs and arms. Because the ideas behind them are simple to use, and promise that anyone can do this, and promise quick results. For the most part, though, these quick and easy fixes DON’T WORK, except for a few people, who promote the great diet or exercise, and blame the majority of people for just not doing it right. Making sensible food choices and exercising is a hell of a lot of work, and it has to be done correctly all the damn time, and even then, the rewards are small and take an unOgly amount of time to show up (if they ever do). It’s the same damned thing with management fads. They’re generally simple to understand and use, and promise that anyone can get great results if they just follow the method, and they promise quick results. They’re generally easy to understand, and usually easy to implement (and if they’re not, then usually there’s a few companies who are willing to run these fads for you), and they DON’T WORK for most people. And by doing this sort of thing, an incompetent manager can point at the exercise and explain “See? I did my part, it’s the EMPLOYEES who won’t co-operate!” and can generally try to wiggle out of applying the principles of Management 101 and 102, as taught in college, which consists of 1. Finding the right people, and paying them an appropriate wage/salary 2. Letting them do their job without playing games with them, and of course, 3. Profit!!!
Using a team building exercise makes middle management look good to upper management. Many people in management are competent, but many are not. The ones who are not usually have some clue that they aren’t competent, and they’re looking for a quick fix, when actually they should be looking for some position that doesn’t involve management. The team building exercises usually have someone selling them. And they give managers something to talk about, to show that they’re up on the latest fad (which is not called a fad) in management.
Yes, and that’s understandable. I know I’ve become impatient with poorly-organized training before, to the point where I dropped out and possibly got a black mark for it.
I’d also say that posters here have commonly objected to anything company sponsored that involves exercise, trust-building type exercises, or coming in out of regularly scheduled hours.
Doesn’t make sense to me. If companies presume that employees are cowed into fear, why would managers set up (allegedly) fun activities, mandatory or not? They could just issue a memo saying “work harder and be a productive happy team or hit the bricks, losers!”
I don’t know SteveG at all, but somebody who posts things like “Stay the fuck out of my head”, “I keep my mouth shut SO LONG as no one fucks with me too much”, and offers to cage match the next manager who suggests a team building exercise sounds more like a workplace sociopath than, say, the lady who organized our semi-mandatory office Xmas party. YMMV.
Yes, bad managers are bad and that’s a thing that is… bad. I get your drift.
It’s also not a cakewalk being a manager and it’s not well paid, especially when one considers the extra work and responsibility, so I’m not overly shocked when someone who kinda sucks at the job gets it. I’ve surely seen it occur with non-management gigs.
That said, organizations do have norms and expectations; IMO, that’s their prerogative. For instance, a fair bit of my performance review has little to do with my job description, strictly speaking, and measures things like leadership and flexibility. I’ve heard of places where there’s an expectation that you play golf or whatever. If I wanted to work there, I’d learn how to play.
I’ll add that I do feel-- and possibly I’m unusual in this-- a degree of gratitude to my employer. They didn’t have to hire me. They give me a clean, comfortable place to work. I can wear pretty much what I like. They helped me stay in the company when my position went to another state, without requiring that I move with it. I get bonuses and a modicum of recognition. Sure beats the shit out of unloading containers in December.
Yes.
Hearing that fourteen of the people, from eight different factories, who are in a week-long company meeting are going out for dinner and a movie and saying “oh that’s great! Treat it as a company expense and put it for my approval, we’ll count it as team-building” - wonderful.
Ordering on Friday that people who have been in a company meeting for a minimum of one week, have another week to go, and over 70% of whom will not be going home for the weekend, must come dressed in sports paraphernalia on Monday? Both ill-conceived (ownership of sports paraphernalia is not legally required) and ill-timed.
Bringing in food when people are working through their lunch break? Good. Making it BBQ Pizzas when the team includes three vegetarians and a practicing Jew? :smack:
I think that I’d rather work with SteveG. I’d do my job, he’d do his job, he’d probably nod in greeting at me if he doesn’t go crazy and say “good morning”. I doubt that he’s going to want to hang around and gossip when I’ve got work to do. The woman who organizes a party, though, is likely to want me to help with organizing it, AND will be very, very hurt if I don’t declare what a good time I’ve having at half hour intervals. She’s probably going to want to gossip, too. Sometimes workplace parties can be fun. Most of the time, though, I’ve had it up to HERE with the job and the people I work with, and I want to go home and spend time with the people that I really care about, you know, my family and friends.
I can get along with most people, at least well enough to work with them. But just because I can work with them, and get along with them, doesn’t mean that I want to spend “family and friends” time with them. I want to spend MORE time with my family and friends than I do with my co-workers.
If it EVER counts for more than competence, you need not worry about giving your business a terminal disease. That box is already checked.
Well, if the dichotomy is “insincere good attitude” or “pissy” - I’ll take the insincere good attitude. Faking it is good enough. At least the guy who is faking it cares about his job enough to fake it.
Now, someone who isn’t a rah-rah team player and does their job quietly and competently, I’ll take that guy over Mr. Insincere. But that wasn’t what I was talking about. I was talking about a good attitude - even one you choose that isn’t sincere, over a bad attitude.
Does he care enough about his job to do it, though? I ask because I’ve had several coworkers who were so busy faking love for the bosses and “establishing appropriate rapports” that they didn’t have time to actually perform the tasks listed in their job descriptions. If someone can’t or won’t do the actual job, I don’t want him in the team.