If you had the power, how would you structure the tax system?

I must be misunderstanding your tax plan then. If you’d like to continue the discussion, could you state it again with some more detail?

But if tax deductions are based on investment in and contributions to the U.S. economy, and the deductable value of foreign investments cannot be assessed on this basis, then deductions will not be offered to American companies that make more foreign than domestic investments. This means that, in particular, companies engaged in import from lower-wage countries would operate at a disadvantage to other American firms, even though both of their industries benefit the U.S.

You can say “Don’t invest in other countries if you want a tax break,” but foreign investment and trade is a vital part of the U.S. economy, and should not be discouraged. After all, dollars spent to build a factory in China will eventually be used to buy goods priced in American dollars.

What I’m talking about in this discussion is high income tax rates on all income. In conjunction there would be tax deductions for reinvestment back into the US economy. The kind of things that used to be called tax shelters. As far as I’m concerned, if an individual re-invests enough money into the economy, theire effective tax rate could be zero. I think this should be applied to corporate taxes in a similar way. Profits to be distributed as dividends shouldn’t be taxed at all, they’ll be taxed as income after being disbursed. Profits re-invested into the US economy wouldn’t be taxed either.

I don’t rule out investment in other countries, but investment in other countries isn’t guaranteed to be benificial to the US. If those investments can be proven to be beneficial to the US then I’d allow them. But capital investment in the US is always beneficial to our economy. Investment in China because it may one day benefit the US economy is a crap shoot.

I’d also have standard deductions to make taxes very low at the bottom of the economic scale to prevent regressive effects. This is how we get our own cheap labor and minimize the amount of welfare needed to maintain social order.

10% tax on sales of all motor vehicles, new or used, not made in North America in closed union shops.

Legalize marijuana and tax it say $5 per pack of 20 joints.

Estate tax: 10% on first $100,000, 20% on amounts from $100,000-$250,000,
50% on amounts from $250,000-$500,000, and 90% on amounts over $500,000.

Tax the churches like any other business. Televengelists pay 90% tax.

10% tax on sales of new rifles and shotguns. Register handguns like cars and tax all sales, new or used, at 25%. Tax all ammo.

Return tax rates to the Clinton era rates.

Eliminate deductions for mortages on second homes. We need the deduction on the first home to encourage home ownership.

Tax 20% on sales of yachts and private jet aircraft.

10% tax on golf club membership.

3rd and later marriages ineligible for joint filing.

I’d give some credits, too

$5000 per year per students in public universities

$10,000 for moving out of a flood zone

$1000 per person per year who can test free of tobacco use

$100 per person per year who promises not to wear plaid pants.

I think I understand your plan now. Your motive is to keep money in circulation through investment, rather than using the tax code solely to collect revenue, correct?

I disagree with your plan on the grounds that it’s too distortive. There are times when investment simply isn’t prudent, and providing a perverse incentive to stash your money in some kind of investment would lead to problems, I think. Also, I would argue that investment anywhere is beneficial to the US, since it contributes to a free worldwide market.

This I can get on board with, as it’s closer to the negative income tax.

Correct. I would rather have revenue result from many people working and paying reasonable tax rates rather than having to soak the rich to pay the bills. It would lower our costs, and increase revenue over a broader range.

If investment is going to pay salaries, build buildings, and buy equipment made in the US I don’t see how it could go wrong. Investments that don’t do things like that would have to be ruled out. I do see that it’s difficult to figure out whether buying machinery from Korea to make things in the US is beneficial or not, or how beneficial. But I think those things could be worked out. Buying machinery in China to be used in China to make things to sell to the US is a very different issue. The path to the benefit for us is too indirect, and may never be realized. I’m not ruling it out, but I don’t have a simple way to define when a foriegn investment is directly beneficial, so I’m not really addressing it here.

Yes. I don’t like the NIT when it begins to look like money for nothing. That would be a disincentive to people working. Not always a bad thing either. Parents being able to spend more time with their children is a benefit. But something that recipients will see as no different than our current welfare system will not be good. However I’m not proposing something in contrast to NIT, just what I see as addressing the proper issues. For instance, if a consumption tax was used it could be implemented as a tax prebate to cover the average amount taxes that would be paid on basic necessities for people. Each family might receive a check for $500 a month per person in the household to cover the cost of the sales taxes on their necessities. However there are many other problems with a nationals sales tax. But I’m not looking at the details of the collection system in this thread so much as the principles involved.

[QUOTE=Human Action;15781961
Better yet, eliminate it. The government subsidizing home ownership needs to stop, it’s gotten us into trouble before, and it will again.[/QUOTE]

I could support a gradual phase out, but many home owners based their financial decision to buy a home based on this deduction. To end it overnight would quadruple the already high number of foreclosures as the rules change and people who could afford their homes suddenly can’t. Perhaps a grandfather clause that would eliminate it for all future purchases but keep it for current mortgages. The bottom would still drop out of the already weak housing market, but at least you wouldn’t be throwing people out on the street.

So, in the event that the majority of taxpayers went whole-hog for investing and caused a revenue shortfall, you’d just adjust the deduction amounts on a year-to-year basis?

This remains an issue, overseas investing is a major business activity and should not be discouraged.

The key to the NIT is the subsidy rate. If you set it at 50%, then every dollar a person earns, under the allowance rate, replaces a 50 cent welfare payment. This provides the incentive to work.

Oh, absolutely. You’d have to have something like a grandfather clause, an overnight shutdown would be unjust. Much like Social Security, such programs are insidiously difficult to shut down once begun.

In the unlikely event that happens, yes. I don’t see it as possible in anything but a skyrocketing ecomomy of unknown proportions. But I do think investment opportunites should be available to anyone with a few bucks to spare.

Remember by investment I mean things like newly issued stock, not just trading existing shares. Money provided for salaries is best since a portion of that immediately becomes tax revenue. Other capital investments such as buildings and machinery will add to economic growth also. There might be schedules to deal with cases like buying an old building or old equipment. The costs of refurbishing those things should be considered deductable investments. But possibly there could be a partial deduction for buying an existing building if it’s part of a larger investment in new productivity. Economic growth brings in new revenue through taxes (and other duties, fees, etc. that I don’t object to if they are reasonable). And a growing economy can pay off old debts.

Again, I don’t object to deductions for overseas investment, if we know it has a beneficial effect. That’s a whole other subject, and how other countries tax and handle their economies is a factor in making those decisions. We can’t control what they do with money through our own regulations. I just want to make sure there isn’t an incentive to send money overseas to avoid taxes, in a way that benefits individuals, but not the economy overall.

I’m trying to set down the principle that income above the level needed for necessities should be taxed at the rate needed to pay the bills. But investment in economic growth will pay off in the future and is a better way to pay those bills, and keep them from getting that high. So I’d incentivize that investment through tax breaks, and it gives a way for those who hate taxes to avoid them that is beneficial to the economy as a whole.

My plan would be pretty simple and would work best on income, but would be doable on a consumption base as well with a few minor adjustments. In so designing taxes, I consider that essentially, in a society, the purpose of taxation is to raise money for services that virtually everyone paying that tax receives virtually the same benefits from the use of thsoe taxes. The purpose of taxation is ONLY to raise funds, not for social engineering or benefits or penalteis, which if deemed necessary can be performed by plans funded by taxes rather than directly implemented through taxes, and the pain of taxation should be spread as evenly through the population as possible.

To this end, I’ve devised what I call a utility based tax system. Essentially, the idea is that the value of money isn’t the same for each person. If we use a flat tax percentage, while everyone is technically paying the same amount and so one might argue the pain of the tax is the same, in reality it’s not. For someone making $30k, losing 15% of that in taxation is going to affect their standard of living more than someone making $300k. So the idea is to adjust tax rates based on that. I don’t have a specific formula off the top of my head, but I do know that studies have generally shown that the value of money grows logarithmically. Thus, the most fair way to tax everyone with equal pain is to have a flat tax rate on that value, by establishing the rate and adjusting it based on utility.

Basically, this gives us a progressive tax system, but it would be based on actual economic data on the value of money to the people being taxed. But to give an example of how this would work, I threw together a quick formula that eyeballs some numbers that are good enough to this point [utility = ln(inc * 0.00015) and utility(base)/utility(inc) to normalize]. Let’s run with 30k as median income and give them base utility tax rate of 12%. Based on my quick formula, to someone making 20k, a dollar is work about 1.37 to what it’s worth someone making 30k, so they pay 8.8%, but to someone making 50k it’s worth 0.75 so they pay 16.1% and if you make 200k you pay 27.1%. Obviously, it needs more than 10 minutes of me playing with the numbers, but I think the basic idea comes across. I’m sure that an economist who specializes on this sort of thing could figure out a much more solid way of modelling this value.

Now, when congress institutes a tax hike or a tax cut, it automatically hits everyone. Yes, richer people get more from a tax cut, but they also take more from a tax hike. But the key point is, since it’s adjusted based on utility, everyone should feel roughly the same impact and can know roughly what their conversion rate is so they know how to respond to a certain amount of a tax change.

That all said, the base tax rate isn’t just an arbitrary number, it is specifically chosen to exactly, or as nearly as reasonably possible, balance the budget. To this end, every bill and every expenditure must provide a budget and that is added to the budget, and the rate is more or less a ratio of government budget to income. If they over tax a bit one year, the extra money is applied to the following year’s budget and thus the next year gets a slightly lower rate. If there’s a shortfall, it’s added to the next year’s budget and there’s a coresponding increase. As a result, we’d never never sustain a long term budget shortfall or surplus.

The other benefit is that every single government program could be directly correlated to how it affects each individual’s taxes. If the government wants to spend more money, they HAVE to raise taxes. If they want to cut taxes they HAVE to cut spending. And each person can see how much of their taxes goes toward defense or social security or education or whatever and take that into account when politicians talk about policy. And if politicians are talking about creating a new program or cutting an existing one, each person can see exactly how much it will cost them or what they’ll gain and better decide if it’s worth it.

And as I mentioned, if we decide we want to give bonuses to home owners or whatever, it needs to be done after taxes. Charge them the same rate, then have a government program that calcuates what it would cost and sends a check to those people. Then everyone can see how much it costs us to engage in that social engineering and if we still want it.

So we all get to have a single number we can relate to, it’s easy to calculate exactly how much we owe, so it’s simple to deduct from payroll and do our taxes, and it’s easy to understand how the government’s spending affects our taxes to better understand policy.

TLDR: It would be a progressive tax system based on the utility of money. The base rate is roughly a ratio of government cost to taxable income and automatically rolls in surplusses and shortfalls from year to year. Every government program must account directly for it’s cost and is easily reportable to the public for discussion on policy as how much it affects the base rate. And doing your taxes would be as simple as plugging your income into the formula and getting your rate; you’d spend more time filling in your personal identifying information than you would actually doing your taxes.

I want to revise mine:

A flat tax, but taxable income is after deducting, basically (and I have a system for itemizing this to an extent) the cost of a comfortable middle-class lifestyle. That means that someone not earning enough to afford a comfortable middle-class lifestyle pays no taxes, but these are also the people who would miss the money the most. I assume the rate would have to be fairly high, then, but I don’t think it should be for the sake of being high; if a relatively low tax rate on taxable income would cover everything, I’m fine with that.