# If you like your health insurance, you can keep it **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 11, 2015, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-like-your-health-insurance-you-can-keep-it/712356 "2015-02-11T01:40:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![stretch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@stretch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stretch)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-like-your-health-insurance-you-can-keep-it/712356/181 "2015-02-13T14:25:04Z")
I said this: > [@stretch](#): > > SSDI is a government program that provides benefits to disabled people in excess of the amount they would receive if those benefits were based solely on the amounts contributed by that person. This means that the program provides more to you because you are determined to have a need for support. You know, because you are needy. That fits the definition of welfare. Your response: > [@curlcoat](#): > > Wrong, try again. I get significantly _less_ than if I’d made it to 65. And whether I end up getting more than I put in depends on how long I manage to live. And it has zero to do with whether or not a person is needy - millionaires are eligible to get their Social Security when they qualify. > > That word “contribute” is the important difference between SSDI and welfare. It’s amazing how many people here make pronouncements on shit they no very little about. You receive less than if you made it to 65 and contributed until that age. But you receive more than you would if only your contributions and years of work were considered. People can read SSA publications, too, you know. Including social security statements like this [pdf example](http://www.ssa.gov/myaccount/materials/pdfs/SSA-7005-OL.pdf). Don’t assume what I know about SSDI. I went through the entire process with my ex and served as his protective payee until our divorce. > [@curlcoat](#): > > Medicare? I’m not on Medicare, so why throw that in? Why not? If you have been on SSDI for a number of years you are entitled to Medicare. And if you are entitled to Medicare, usually your health insurance providers insist you enroll. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-like-your-health-insurance-you-can-keep-it/712356/182 "2015-02-13T14:59:28Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Are you really that dumb? The fire department is not there to make sure you don’t lose anything in a fire, they are there to try to save your house and to see that the fire doesn’t spread. They aren’t there for individual structures, there are there to stop fires. > > And, responsible people do have fire insurance. They’re there to stop fires. Great. That doesn’t explain why they are publicly funded. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-like-your-health-insurance-you-can-keep-it/712356/183 "2015-02-13T17:16:58Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Snort. As I said waaay back there, the fire dept and Obamacare are nothing the same. We have fire, police, etc for the community good. We have Obamacare because people couldn’t be arsed to buy health insurance. We have Obamacare because the individual market for insurance was broken. > [@](#): > > What makes you think I didn’t? I’ve been “officially” disabled for over 20 years, and aware it was a probability far longer than that. Are you saying I don’t have a right to take the pension funds the government made me invest? Social Security is not public assistance, no matter what you want to believe. And lord knows, I am not living on my SSDI. Well, if you’ve been preparing then you shouldn’t really be getting the SSDI, personal responsibility and all that. The fact of the matter is that SSDI is social insurance. You don’t go out and actively enroll for SSDI benefits, everyone is enrolled if they get a paycheck… whether they like it or not. That is a tax on all that provides a benefit for a few. We have linked it with work history but I don’t see how you can make a huge moral distinction between SSDI and free lunch for kids, or food stamps, or WIC, or welfare. It is assistance for the less fortunate. You can argue that your benefits are justified and other benefits are not, but you have not made that case. You have just been shitting on the heads of people who get public assistance while carving out your form of public assistance as OK and you are doing it based on anecdote (which I suspect you are embellishing the way Brian Williams embellished his stories (you heard a few stories so you claim that you have direct knowledge of dozens of these stories)). If anecdotes of welfare’s failures are evidence of anecdotes of welfare’s success should mean something too, right? I’ve got a few of those anecdotes. My family immigrated here when I was a baby. I got free school lunch all the way through high school. I had relatives on food stamps and Supplemental SSI. Between me and my siblings we will probably pay over a million dollars in taxes this year. The same holds true for my in laws. They were actually on welfare for several years. and now they probably pay about a million/year in income taxes. In fact I know a shitload of people who share this exact same experience. So, because I know a few cases like this, I’m just going to assume that this is a common phenomenon that makes these welfare programs the best investment we ever made. Hell, to hear successful people talk about it, it seems like the majority of them had really humble roots and had free school lunch and shit like that. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-like-your-health-insurance-you-can-keep-it/712356/184 "2015-02-13T18:31:43Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Ah. So both trolling _and_ ignorant. Bravo. Hahahaha. Your trolling is amusing but your ignorance of the Gulf of Tonkin is just sad. Maybe your google is broken? **mhendo** asked, “Have you ever heard of the Gulf of Tonkin?” I have heard of the Gulf of Tonkin but I had hoped that **mhendo** might clarify what it was about the Gulf of Tonkin that he was referring to. I’m aware that the North Vietnamese navy attacked the U.S. Navy on Aug 2, 1964. I’m also aware that the NV Navy did not attack the U.S. Navy on Aug 4, 1964. > **[Vietnam War: An Overview of the Gulf of Tonkin Incident](https://www.thoughtco.com/vietnam-war-gulf-of-tonkin-incident-2361345)** > > The Gulf of Tonkin Incident occurred on Aug. 2 and 4, 1964, and saw U.S. naval forces engage North Vietnamese patrol boats. Your ignorance only reflects your ignorance. Better luck next time. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-like-your-health-insurance-you-can-keep-it/712356/185 "2015-02-13T18:38:57Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > I have heard of the Gulf of Tonkin but I had hoped that **mhendo** might clarify what it was about the Gulf of Tonkin that he was referring to. See, that’s the problem. I, like **andros** and presumably everyone else in the thread, did not need **mhendo** to clarify which incident he was referring to, because it was bleedingly obvious from the context of his post to anyone with a cursory knowledge of the history of the Vietnam war and 2 brain cells to rub together. Ergo, you don’t have a cursory knowledge of the history of the Vietnam war, or you don’t have 2 brain cells to rub together, or you’re a giant troll. **andros** was nice enough not to include the 2 brain cells option, but I think he’s a generous fellow. And your propensity for trolling has been established for a long while now. The only remaining question was about your ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-like-your-health-insurance-you-can-keep-it/712356/186 "2015-02-13T18:41:46Z")
> [@](#): > > …Herrick instructed his gun crews to fire three warning shots if the North Vietnamese came within 10,000 yards of the ship. These warning shots were fired and the P-4s launched a torpedo attack…Returning fire, Maddox scored hits on the P-4s while being struck by a single 14.5-millimeter machine gun bullet… So, the NV fired off a torpedo at a range of six miles? Helluva torpedo! Helluva 14.5 mm round as well. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-like-your-health-insurance-you-can-keep-it/712356/187 "2015-02-13T18:43:35Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > **mhendo** asked, “Have you ever heard of the Gulf of Tonkin?” I have heard of the Gulf of Tonkin but I had hoped that **mhendo** might clarify what it was about the Gulf of Tonkin that he was referring to. Riiiiiight. You know we can read your words, right? Seriously, dude: ignorance is no crime. There’s nothing wrong with copping to it–and everything wrong with desperate lying to avoid doing so. (That said, I’m glad you took the time to learn about the incident. It’s important to know about, so kudos.) ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-like-your-health-insurance-you-can-keep-it/712356/188 "2015-02-13T19:03:47Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > That is news to the ones that managed SS in the USA. > > [Social Security History](http://www.ssa.gov/history/aja964.html) I’m not sure what you think you are refuting here. > [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > So you’re saying you dismiss statistics when they do not comport with your predetermined outcome? Because you really need to show some reason why the methodology for determining welfare fraud is erroneous. No, I am saying that quoting statistics without the definitions of the criteria used is the same thing as just saying what you believe. One can find studies and stats to support any position. > [@](#): > > Why just last month, the [USDA updated a report](http://www.fns.usda.gov/pressrelease/2013/fns-001213) that pointed out where fraud and abuse was happening and the steps they were taking to prevent it. Kindly tell me what is wrong with this report. I don’t have time to read the whole thing right now, but it looks like it might be interesting about _one_ area of welfare. > [@](#): > > If that’s what you think has been said, you’re wrong. If that’s what was said, whoever said it is wrong. > > Fraud and abuse is detectable and correctable. You can even anonymously report welfare fraud through the internet if you find it. This was said about the workers within the welfare system, not the man on the street. > [@](#): > > If someone is getting something they don’t deserve, it would be fraudulent, wouldn’t it? Words have meanings you know. Either someone deserves their benefits or they are recieving them fraudulently. No, that isn’t true. It is entirely possible for someone to be receiving benefits legally but undeserving. > [@](#): > > How do kids grow up if they are unable to eat? How does not having kids eat address the underlying problem? What should the government do about the underlying problem? Isn’t it possible to do something about the underlying problem while feeding the kids who are hungry now? Sure! However, all anyone focuses on are the “hungry children”. > [@](#): > > Your anecdotes are irrelevant. > > Your anecdotes are still irrelevant. They are what form my opinions. I am far more likely to believe what I see for myself than what some anonymous person on the internet claims. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-like-your-health-insurance-you-can-keep-it/712356/189 "2015-02-13T19:10:06Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > And what’s all that about “addressing the underlying problem”? The “solutions” I’ve seen from the right side of the aisle have tended to boil down to either “cut taxes on the rich, and the poor will get some eventually” (or “because freedom is more important than saving the lives of a bunch of poor people”) or “not my problem.” It would help if people didn’t assume large things based on one tiny fact. I have no interest in either of those solutions because they don’t address the underlying problem, which is the growing sense of entitlement to having whatever one wants whether they can afford it or not. > [@stretch](#): > > You receive less than if you made it to 65 and contributed until that age. But you receive more than you would if only your contributions and years of work were considered. That doesn’t even make sense. > [@](#): > > Don’t assume what I know about SSDI. I went through the entire process with my ex and served as his protective payee until our divorce. Then you should either make clearer posts or go back and review the facts. You haven’t been right yet. For example: > [@](#): > > Why not? If you have been on SSDI for a number of years you are entitled to Medicare. And if you are entitled to Medicare, usually your health insurance providers insist you enroll. I am eligible for Medicare, but am covered under my husbands group insurance thru his employer. There is no reason for UHC (may they be nuked from space) to insist I enroll in Medicare because they would still have to pay as primary. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-like-your-health-insurance-you-can-keep-it/712356/190 "2015-02-13T19:21:43Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > They’re there to stop fires. Great. That doesn’t explain why they are publicly funded. Are you really that dumb or just trolling? I already explained that. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > We have Obamacare because the individual market for insurance was broken. The solution simply made that worse. > [@](#): > > Well, if you’ve been preparing then you shouldn’t really be getting the SSDI, personal responsibility and all that. Why is that? At what point in my life do you think it would be OK with you to get my Social Security? > [@](#): > > The fact of the matter is that SSDI is social insurance. You don’t go out and actively enroll for SSDI benefits, everyone is enrolled if they get a paycheck… whether they like it or not. That is a tax on all that provides a benefit for a few. No. Everyone gets the benefit if they pay in and live long enough to qualify for it. > [@](#): > > We have linked it with work history but I don’t see how you can make a huge moral distinction between SSDI and free lunch for kids, or food stamps, or WIC, or welfare. It is assistance for the less fortunate. You can argue that your benefits are justified and other benefits are not, but you have not made that case. Only because you don’t want to hear it. Social Security is a government forced pension plan that happens to have a disability rider (or whatever that is called). Welfare is given to anyone who qualifies for it whether they have paid into the system or not, whether they are in trouble thru any fault of their own or not. And, it only covers those who were selfish and stupid enough to have children they couldn’t afford, with a couple of narrow exceptions. > [@](#): > > You have just been shitting on the heads of people who get public assistance while carving out your form of public assistance as OK and you are doing it based on anecdote (which I suspect you are embellishing the way Brian Williams embellished his stories (you heard a few stories so you claim that you have direct knowledge of dozens of these stories)). Nope, these are people I know. If you would get your head out of your butt, you’d see them too. Or maybe it’s a California problem, I don’t know. There were far fewer welfare abusers in Washington, but that was over 20 years ago. > [@](#): > > If anecdotes of welfare’s failures are evidence of anecdotes of welfare’s success should mean something too, right? I’ve got a few of those anecdotes. My family immigrated here when I was a baby. I got free school lunch all the way through high school. I had relatives on food stamps and Supplemental SSI. Between me and my siblings we will probably pay over a million dollars in taxes this year. > > The same holds true for my in laws. They were actually on welfare for several years. and now they probably pay about a million/year in income taxes. > > In fact I know a shitload of people who share this exact same experience. > > So, because I know a few cases like this, I’m just going to assume that this is a common phenomenon that makes these welfare programs the best investment we ever made. Hell, to hear successful people talk about it, it seems like the majority of them had really humble roots and had free school lunch and shit like that. That’s nice. However you are talking about the past, not now. Generations ago, when people were embarrassed to take welfare and had work ethics for the most part. When the only credit they were paying off back then was their mortgage, if that. Not that welfare is necessary for success. I grew up in poverty and didn’t make it to middle class until around my mid 20’s, and I never had one bit of welfare. No free lunches back then - I’m not sure Washington even had any sort of welfare back then. No Medicaid, no food stamps, no subsidized housing. I “just” worked hard and put off buying things until I could actually afford them. Which is a novel idea these days. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-like-your-health-insurance-you-can-keep-it/712356/191 "2015-02-13T19:36:03Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > I’m not sure what you think you are refuting here. Your idea that Social Security is not welfare nor public assistance. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-like-your-health-insurance-you-can-keep-it/712356/192 "2015-02-13T19:45:07Z")
> [@](#): > > …And now I am become **curlcoat** , the destroyer of threads… - Bhagavad Gita ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-like-your-health-insurance-you-can-keep-it/712356/193 "2015-02-13T19:48:12Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Riiiiiight. You know we can read your words, right? > > Seriously, dude: ignorance is no crime. There’s nothing wrong with copping to it–and everything wrong with desperate lying to avoid doing so. > > (That said, I’m glad you took the time to learn about the incident. It’s important to know about, so kudos.) I’m not sure that you can read my words. You couldn’t prove it, considering your response to my asking for clarification as to what **mhendo** meant. You obviously object to people trying to have a conversation or asking questions. Haters gotta hate and bullies gotta be bullies. At least you have a goal in life. FYI - I’m not trying to arrest you for your ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-like-your-health-insurance-you-can-keep-it/712356/194 "2015-02-13T19:54:25Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > The solution simply made that worse. A lie as there is more people insured, and it also means more people with access to vaccines too, because it is important to notice that besides woo woo wealthy families not vaccinating their kids, a good number of kids were not vaccinated because of the cost or lack of access that poor families had. As the Press secretary of the president reported: “thanks to the Affordable Care Act, they don’t have to worry about that anymore; that people who are covered under the Affordable Care Act through essentially getting health insurance through the marketplaces, we have required that those insurance programs include free preventative coverage, including vaccinations like those against measles. So that is one of the other benefits of the Affordable Care Act – both in terms of reducing costs, but also in terms of making people healthier.” The ACA helps in that regard to plug the holes that exist in the herd immunity that helps preserve the health of all in our society. Yes, even you. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-like-your-health-insurance-you-can-keep-it/712356/195 "2015-02-13T19:58:22Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > See, that’s the problem. I, like **andros** and presumably everyone else in the thread, did not need **mhendo** to clarify which incident he was referring to, because it was bleedingly obvious from the context of his post to anyone with a cursory knowledge of the history of the Vietnam war and 2 brain cells to rub together. Ergo, you don’t have a cursory knowledge of the history of the Vietnam war, or you don’t have 2 brain cells to rub together, or you’re a giant troll. **andros** was nice enough not to include the 2 brain cells option, but I think he’s a generous fellow. And your propensity for trolling has been established for a long while now. The only remaining question was about your ignorance. Oh boy, another troll who objects to people asking for clarification. :smack: Oh, the humanity, the humanity. :rolleyes: So here’s your chance to clarify which incident _another_ poster was referring to. Was it the Aug 2nd or the Aug 4th incident? Or was it something different? You’re the professed mind reader. What is the amazing **steronz** best guess? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-like-your-health-insurance-you-can-keep-it/712356/196 "2015-02-13T20:11:27Z")
I take no position on the merits of your respective arguments, but pretending you don’t know what the Gulf of Tonkin reference was about is an insult to everyone’s intelligence. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-like-your-health-insurance-you-can-keep-it/712356/197 "2015-02-13T20:22:25Z")
Quiet, he’ll accuse of you clairvoyance next! ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-like-your-health-insurance-you-can-keep-it/712356/198 "2015-02-13T20:25:06Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I take no position on the merits of your respective arguments, but pretending you don’t know what the Gulf of Tonkin reference was about is an insult to everyone’s intelligence. I take no position on the merits of you not knowing the difference between asking for clarification and your presumption that I did not know of several incidents that did, and did not, occurred in the Gulf of Tonkin in 1964. You object to people asking for clarification. I think your nom de plume was more than a random selection. Life goes on. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-like-your-health-insurance-you-can-keep-it/712356/199 "2015-02-13T20:32:26Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Quiet, he’ll accuse of you clairvoyance next! How very clairvoyant of you. Unfortunately, you divined the wrong answer. Again. Points for consistency though. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-like-your-health-insurance-you-can-keep-it/712356/200 "2015-02-13T23:30:38Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > It would help if people didn’t assume large things based on one tiny fact. I have no interest in either of those solutions because they don’t address the underlying problem, which is the growing sense of entitlement to having whatever one wants whether they can afford it or not. Actually, that falls rather neatly under “not my problem,” considering we’re talking about whether people should be able to CONTINUE LIVING or not based on their ability to pay. (Or, technically, have to choose between living or facing a lifetime of crippling debt that conservatives will sneer at them at and insist must be their fault somehow, whether it is or not.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-like-your-health-insurance-you-can-keep-it/712356.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-like-your-health-insurance-you-can-keep-it/712356.md?page=11)