# If you like your health insurance, you can keep it **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 11, 2015, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-like-your-health-insurance-you-can-keep-it/712356 "2015-02-11T01:40:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-like-your-health-insurance-you-can-keep-it/712356/41 "2015-02-11T13:18:34Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It looks like Bush and Obama have paid for their lies in similar ways. Both lost Congress. Unfortunately, Bush’s lies cost f hell of a lot more than just Congress. It cost thousands of American lives, tens of thousands of innocent Middle Easterners lives, trillions of dollars, allies, and America’s reputation. Obama’s cost us … more health care for poorer Americans. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-like-your-health-insurance-you-can-keep-it/712356/42 "2015-02-11T13:34:43Z")
Americans don’t like being lied to. Hopefully the next President figures that out. Politicians are a slow bunch, though. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-like-your-health-insurance-you-can-keep-it/712356/43 "2015-02-11T13:42:27Z")
**adaher** , aka “The Laziest Poster on the entire Straight Dope Message Board”, made this thread just to avoid having to actually back up his assertions about me. Seriously – that’s the only reason. And it’s not the first or even the second time he’s made unsupported and uncited assertions about me. [Here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18122424&postcount=605) he says I play “political games to confuse”. I challenge him and ask for a cite [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18122441&postcount=608). He still doesn’t cite, but [says](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18122476&postcount=611) that I said the President didn’t lie about the ACA, and says I did it in a “lawyerly” fashion (as if disagreeing on whether something was a lie is playing “political games to confuse”). I [ask him](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18122657&postcount=620) to provide a specific cite for his assertions about me, and so does the [moderator](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18124234&postcount=644) – the main assertion being that I play “political games to confuse”. His [answer](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18124282&postcount=645)? He’ll just start a new thread to try and get me to play these supposed “political games to confuse”. And he [finds](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18124322&postcount=646) a single instance in which I said the President didn’t lie about the ACA, in three words (and obviously without “political games” or “lawyerly” explanations). And this is the thread he made because he’s _the laziest man on the internet_. He serially makes assertions, whether about other Dopers or about politics, without backing them up – occasionally he’ll have a cite, but the very cite often refutes his own arguments! So here’s my contribution to the thread: **adaher** , you are the laziest poster on the Dope. You love to post, but you hate actually backing up your posts. You hate it so much that, rather than actually back up your posts, you’ll just _make more posts_ to sidestep and avoid it. This is your thing, **adaher** – making assertions about other posters or anything at all, refusing to back it up when challenged, and just continuing along as if you have any credibility. You don’t, though. No credibility… and all lost just because you’re too damn lazy to back up your arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-like-your-health-insurance-you-can-keep-it/712356/44 "2015-02-11T13:49:26Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Americans don’t like being lied to. I’ll go out on a limb and say that Americans don’t like dying, wasting trillions of dollars on an unnecessary war, killing innocents, and losing the moral high ground more than they don’t like being lied to. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-like-your-health-insurance-you-can-keep-it/712356/45 "2015-02-11T13:55:16Z")
They do not. They not only punished Bush for it, they punished McCain too. Whether or not Hillary gets punished for Obama’s lies will depend on how many new ones he tells between now and Nov. 2016 and their consequences. Remember, he’s still got time to get us into a quagmire in Iraq and Syria. He did pledge to not commit ground troops. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-like-your-health-insurance-you-can-keep-it/712356/46 "2015-02-11T13:56:52Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > **adaher** , aka “The Laziest Poster on the entire Straight Dope Message Board”, made this thread just to avoid having to actually back up his assertions about me. Seriously – that’s the only reason. And it’s not the first or even the second time he’s made unsupported and uncited assertions about me. > > [Here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18122424&postcount=605) he says I play “political games to confuse”. I challenge him and ask for a cite [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18122441&postcount=608). He still doesn’t cite, but [says](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18122476&postcount=611) that I said the President didn’t lie about the ACA, and says I did it in a “lawyerly” fashion (as if disagreeing on whether something was a lie is playing “political games to confuse”). I [ask him](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18122657&postcount=620) to provide a specific cite for his assertions about me, and so does the [moderator](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18124234&postcount=644) – the main assertion being that I play “political games to confuse”. His [answer](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18124282&postcount=645)? He’ll just start a new thread to try and get me to play these supposed “political games to confuse”. And he [finds](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18124322&postcount=646) a single instance in which I said the President didn’t lie about the ACA, in three words (and obviously without “political games” or “lawyerly” explanations). > > And this is the thread he made because he’s _the laziest man on the internet_. He serially makes assertions, whether about other Dopers or about politics, without backing them up – occasionally he’ll have a cite, but the very cite often refutes his own arguments! > > So here’s my contribution to the thread: **adaher** , you are the laziest poster on the Dope. You love to post, but you hate actually backing up your posts. You hate it so much that, rather than actually back up your posts, you’ll just _make more posts_ to sidestep and avoid it. > > This is your thing, **adaher** – making assertions about other posters or anything at all, refusing to back it up when challenged, and just continuing along as if you have any credibility. You don’t, though. No credibility… and all lost just because you’re too damn lazy to back up your arguments. Short version: Iiandyii takes the 5th. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-like-your-health-insurance-you-can-keep-it/712356/47 "2015-02-11T14:00:49Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Americans don’t like being lied to. “I’ve heard of many tragic cases of walking, talking, normal children who wound up with profound mental disorders after vaccines” “Time for some traffic problems on the Beltway…” “Got it.” ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-like-your-health-insurance-you-can-keep-it/712356/48 "2015-02-11T14:03:50Z")
There’s a huge difference in consequences between just telling a lie(something all politicians do), and lying to sell a policy that has real consequences for Americans. The administration knew the state of public opinion: the only way to pass health care reform was for Americans who liked their insurance to not see any changes. So they made that promise, even though the text of the law required such changes, and even though conservative commentators pointed out again and again that that law would require such changes. ANd you know how the administration responded? By calling it “fearmongering”. They lied, they further smeared their opponents on the issue, and then when the administration had an opportunity to make good on their promise, they only went halfway. They could have changed the grandfathering regulations at any time to grandfather ALL plans regardless of what they consisted of. It was the easiest thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-like-your-health-insurance-you-can-keep-it/712356/49 "2015-02-11T14:05:18Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Short version: Iiandyii takes the 5th. No, I’m just tired of you making unsupported, uncited assertions about me. It’s cowardly and pathetic. If you want to say stuff about me, then back it up. Quit being so fucking lazy. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-like-your-health-insurance-you-can-keep-it/712356/50 "2015-02-11T14:18:54Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Resolved: the President lied when he said this. > > Anyone disagree?😃 I disagree. He simply demonstarted that several people were under the false belief that they liked their health insurance. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-like-your-health-insurance-you-can-keep-it/712356/51 "2015-02-11T14:49:16Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > You’ll have to define trolling for me then. Maybe I don’t know what the definition is. [Here you go.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/member.php) 😃 ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-like-your-health-insurance-you-can-keep-it/712356/52 "2015-02-11T14:58:33Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Why does it “need reopening?” Most people are pretty happy with the ACA. No they’re not. 39% for and 52% against is not most people being pretty happy. [http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/obama\_and\_democrats\_health\_care\_plan-1130.html](http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/obama_and_democrats_health_care_plan-1130.html) ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-like-your-health-insurance-you-can-keep-it/712356/53 "2015-02-11T15:09:24Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No, I’m just tired of you making unsupported, uncited assertions about me. It’s cowardly and pathetic. If you want to say stuff about me, then back it up. Quit being so fucking lazy. Do you make your wife show you the marriage certificate when she asserts that you are married? If you disagree that you said something, that’s one thing. Making me prove something you know is true is trolling. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-like-your-health-insurance-you-can-keep-it/712356/54 "2015-02-11T15:14:18Z")
On the bright side, I can now say the President lied about his promise anytime I want and iiandyii won’t respond anymore.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-like-your-health-insurance-you-can-keep-it/712356/55 "2015-02-11T15:16:41Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Do you make your wife show you the marriage certificate when she asserts that you are married? > > If you disagree that you said something, that’s one thing. Making me prove something you know is true is trolling. I [disagree](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18122424&postcount=605) that I play “political games to confuse”. I [disagree](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17890479&postcount=129) that I ever believed that Obama’s popularity doesn’t matter. I [disagree](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18108772&postcount=5) that I’m “sure that “lacking confidence in government” cannot possibly be happening”. That’s three assertions that you made about my beliefs that you failed to back up. You said those things, and you provided nothing to support your assertions. Incredibly lazy, cowardly, and obnoxious posting. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-like-your-health-insurance-you-can-keep-it/712356/56 "2015-02-11T15:21:40Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I [disagree](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18122424&postcount=605) that I play “political games to confuse”. I [disagree](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17890479&postcount=129) that I ever believed that Obama’s popularity doesn’t matter. I [disagree](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18108772&postcount=5) that I’m “sure that “lacking confidence in government” cannot possibly be happening”. > > That’s three assertions that you made about my beliefs that you failed to back up. You said those things, and you provided nothing to support your assertions. Incredibly lazy, cowardly, and obnoxious posting. I agreed not to do it again. On the current dispute however, the issue isn’t what you said, which I assume we don’t dispute, it’s the interpretation of what you said. It wasn’t unreasonable to simply ask you to repost, or even reconsider, your argument. But if you don’t want to, fine. I can make an argument forever that you won’t respond to. You’ve essentially ceded the point by abstaining. You won the rules battle, I won the debate. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-like-your-health-insurance-you-can-keep-it/712356/57 "2015-02-11T15:25:10Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I agreed not to do it again. On the current dispute however, the issue isn’t what you said, which I assume we don’t dispute, it’s the interpretation of what you said. It wasn’t unreasonable to simply ask you to repost, or even reconsider, your argument. But if you don’t want to, fine. I can make an argument forever that you won’t respond to. You’ve essentially ceded the point by abstaining. You won the rules battle, I won the debate. Bullshit. Why would I want to play your game, when you’ve been making things up about me without backing it up? No, it’s not reasonable to make up something about me and then ask me to support your own invention. No thank you. Pathetic, cowardly, obnoxious, and most of all _lazy_. Just incredibly, massively, horrendously fucking lazy. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-like-your-health-insurance-you-can-keep-it/712356/58 "2015-02-11T15:28:13Z")
> [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > I disagree. He simply demonstrated that several people were under the false belief that they liked their health insurance. There is that, and after previous discussions and what I have seen it is clear to me that the insurance companies did drop the ball, this was the one time that insurers should had become more proactive and move people to proper plans and absorb some of the costs on the first few years at least; but it is hard for a leopard to change their spots and so the usual practice of expecting clients to look for the better plans on their own when the usual insurance changes came did bite a few of us. However, finding better coverage available in the exchanges by the few affected is an item that should not be ignored. Because insurers were/are the ones getting a better deal out of all this the insurance companies should had been more willing to change their lousy plans, not just dispose of them. > **[The real story behind the phony canceled health insurance plan scandal](https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/11/obamacare-canceled-health-insurance/)** > > Insurance companies ripped off Americans for years with lousy health plans. Obamacare was designed to fix that. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-like-your-health-insurance-you-can-keep-it/712356/59 "2015-02-11T15:34:47Z")
That is what they were doing, they just didn’t do it in as politically savvy a way as the administration would have liked. Instead of saying, “We cancelled your plan, here are some more expensive options”, they were supposed to say, “Great news! For the low price of only $89 more per month, we’ve upgraded your plan!” ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-like-your-health-insurance-you-can-keep-it/712356/60 "2015-02-11T15:44:01Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > No they’re not. 39% for and 52% against is not most people being pretty happy. > > [RealClearPolitics - Election Other - Public Approval of Health Care Law](http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/obama_and_democrats_health_care_plan-1130.html) He’s most likely referring to the users of the exchange. > **[Newly Insured Through Exchanges Give Coverage Good Marks](https://news.gallup.com/poll/179396/newly-insured-exchanges-give-coverage-good-marks.aspx)** > > Americans who bought new health insurance policies through the government exchanges this year are generally pleased with their coverage, and are more satisfied with their coverage costs than others with insurance are. Most plan to renew their... > [@](#): > > PRINCETON, N.J. – Over seven in 10 Americans who bought new health insurance policies through the government exchanges earlier this year rate the quality of their healthcare and their healthcare coverage as “excellent” or “good.” These positive evaluations are generally similar to the reviews that all insured Americans give to their health insurance. What that tells me is that it is indeed mostly propaganda from the right and too high expectations not done from the left the reasons why people outside the exchanges are not seeing a benefit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-like-your-health-insurance-you-can-keep-it/712356.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-like-your-health-insurance-you-can-keep-it/712356.md?page=4)