# If you saw a miracle tomorrow **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 11, 2010, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792 "2010-06-11T13:19:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/181 "2010-06-15T20:01:51Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > I would also think that many Christians reading this would be highly offended by reading some of your descriptions of Jesus. > > Hump backed etc. > > Quite shocking actually. > Quite sad and very ignorant. Please describe him to us, then. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/182 "2010-06-15T20:08:23Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > I would also think that many Christians reading this would be highly offended by reading some of your descriptions of Jesus. Good thing there won’t be any riots about it, eh, eh? That would be impolite. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/183 "2010-06-15T20:11:19Z")
flying, and made of spaghetti ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/184 "2010-06-15T20:11:33Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > I would also think that many Christians reading this would be highly offended by reading some of your descriptions of Jesus. > > Hump backed etc. > > Quite shocking actually. > Quite sad and very ignorant. Again, since you have commented that you are not in your own cultural idiom, you may want to allow some room for misunderstanding. At least one of the references above was to a work of science fiction, in which a man (Karl Glogauer) goes back in time to see Jesus, and winds up inadvertently living the life of Jesus. You may be better served if you tell us what you think, and try not to get too offended if we don’t think the same way. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/185 "2010-06-15T20:11:45Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > Oh come on. We’re trying. You proposed a rather bizarre scenario, and people have given some bizarre responses. I don’t think you’ve had more grammar or English language harassment than is given to native English speakers here - possibly less, as I don’t recall any off the top of my head. > > Have we contorted what you say? Maybe, but at least half of the contorting has been trying to make sense of the scenario you put forward - Why, for example, is Jesus the guy appearing, since his story is not ‘the truth’, in this scenario. It’s a bit confusing. Why not Gabriel, or the Prophet. > > You also, as you admit, have not told us what you believe, leaving us to suppose that you believe the kind of Islam that you’re describing. Feel free to explain more. > > Don’t know what the bias is, but your opening post is going to attract Atheists more than it will attract the devout, so you ought to not be surprised by who’s in the thread. > > If you think this is rough, go dig up the old ‘Ask the Buddhist’ thread. Because Jesus is who Christians and Muslims believe will come at the end of days. That was why I spoke of him but there really is no use trying to explain anything. You talk of why not Gabriel or the prophet, What prophet do you mean? which one? you just said ‘the’ prophet. Anyway time for me to go. Maybe someone else can answer why Jesus wouldn’t be a natural choice to put as the one coming at the end of the days. Ask the Christians why someone would put Jesus, or another Muslim but I doubt to be honest a Muslim would stay here very long when they read some of the things written here. I wonder how many Muslims there are actually. Not many I bet. Shame that because they would be able to clear up many misunderstandings of what they believe and what you think they believe but I cannot see many posting here. Very little respect shown here to people of religion. بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/186 "2010-06-15T20:17:23Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > Very little respect shown here to people of religion. Actually, I think pretty much everyone here starts out with the same level of respect. Some people take their respect and make it grow, while others abuse it until they kill it off entirely. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/187 "2010-06-15T20:18:02Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > Very little respect shown here to people of religion. Now, THAT, I agree with, at least in threads about religion. But in true Doper form, all religions are treated equally poorly. You’re not getting picked on for maybe being a Muslim, your thread is receiving these replies because you posted it on a board with a disproportionate number of atheists and a common vernacular which includes lots of irreverence and sarcasm, no matter what the topic at hand. Hey, if you don’t fit, you don’t fit. That’s not a bad thing. There are lots of message boards where I don’t fit in, either. I wish you peace and better luck elsewhere, should you decide the SDMB isn’t the place for you. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/188 "2010-06-15T20:23:52Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > Many here seem to think that what I say is what I believe. If you notice and took the time you would see that I am saying this is what is believed in Islam or by Muslims in general. I have not stated what I believe but many here assume things which are not true. > > You are twisting what I say and it is the same user names time and time again doing this. > There have only been a very few member here who have understood what I have said so it can’t be me or my understanding. Whether or not I agree with them or not doesn’t matter. At least they have not acted like most of you have. > > I am fed up with members acting in this way and contorting what I say. > I am also fed up with the language, the insults and sarcasm. If that is the general way you address people then I leave it to your kind. This is not the way of my culture. Manners are very important. > > Quite a few posts have no meaning for me because my English is limited but this is taken advantage of time and time again. > There is no room for understanding of another’s lack of language understanding so I will leave this board to you all. > > It seems that it is more fun for some here to criticise my grammar and English than to try just a little to interpret what I might be meaning. > > There is a very clear bias here shown to certain members. I noticed a few other members have mentioned this also. > > Not a forum I’d ever encourage a friend to join sadly. The Egyptian guy I asked to answer one of you a while back said a few pages of reading was enough for him. > > Different cultures, different idea of manners obviously. > > Not for me. Three points: 1. I have responded directly to what’s in your OP. I don’t care what you believe or not - the scenario is the OP, wherein Jesus is an asshole. Seriously - the first thing he does coming out of the gate is giving people a technicolor view of hell, and telling huge swaths of the population that that’s where they’re going. This is **not** the behavior of a nice person. So If you don’t like Jesus being described as an evil monster, then you shouldn’t have written him that way. 2. I was unaware that anybody had insulted your language. 3. If you think that people disagreeing with you is insulting, then you are indeed in the wrong place - this is Great _Debates_. It is the place for witnessing _and_ being debated against. If you want internet people to just agree with you about everything, then there are indeed better places on the internet for you to be. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/189 "2010-06-15T20:41:17Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > Very little respect shown here to people of religion. Religious people and religion get plenty of respect here; more than they deserve IMHO. But if you post something anti-Semitic about how most people on Earth are going to burn forever how do you expect them to react? ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/190 "2010-06-15T20:42:40Z")
The guys above me have said it well, but I would add a bit. 1. You asked what we would do. A few people said pray, or beg. Most people said what they would really do - find God to be unfair, and worse, unsporting. If you don’t like that answer, fine, but that was the actual answer. **Der Trihs** probably would try to kill God, so you can’t fault us there. A lot of the other answers were somewhat joking, but most of them also contained an element of philosophical humor even so. 2. Your Opening Post had Jesus not only coming down at a stadium but also declaring that he is not the Son of God, Indivisible with God the Father. There are a lot of places in the world, and the internet, where that would be extraordinarily offensive to people. Here, it was treated as an peculiar choice of variable in your proposed scenario. I think you got off lightly. 3. As mentioned above, it’s called Great Debates 'cause of the debating. It’s designed to be rough and tumble, even for people who are witnessing. You might have had an easier time if you’d just started off with ‘There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet’\*, maybe\*\*. Anyway, if this place doesn’t suit you, so be it. Good thread, though, I enjoyed it thoroughly. Take it easy. \*This would also answer your other question above, as to who I meant by ‘The Prophet’. \*\*But I doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/191 "2010-06-15T20:47:51Z")
I’m a Buddhist with occasional vague Deistic tendencies, and I wanted to go back to the OP just for the sake of this… > [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > What would you be thinking when you looked at the screen and saw that in fact there is a God and Jesus was a prophet and now you were going to burn in hell for eternity. I just cannot get my head around anyone who doesn’t believe in God and am wondering if they actually ever think this might happen and what they would do if it did. If there IS a God, and Jesus is real, I doubt he’s going to give the entire world a worse deal than he gave Thomas: [QUOTE=John 20:26-28] 26A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” 28Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/192 "2010-06-15T20:51:46Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > I’m a Buddhist with occasional vague Deistic tendencies. > > If there IS a God, and Jesus is real, I doubt he’s going to give the entire world a worse deal than he gave Thomas: I’ve always thought Thomas should be the patron saint of scientists. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/193 "2010-06-15T20:57:50Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > I’m a Buddhist with occasional vague Deistic tendencies, and I wanted to go back to the OP just for the sake of this… > > If there IS a God, and Jesus is real, I doubt he’s going to give the entire world a worse deal than he gave Thomas: Don’t fight the hypothetical - according to the OP, Jesus isn’t that nice a guy. The OP might be offended if you misrepresented what he’d said this way. And we wouldn’t want that. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/194 "2010-06-15T21:01:01Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > I’ve always thought Thomas should be the patron saint of scientists. I can get behind that. Now granted, my very Catholic mother often retorts to me quoting John with “That might be true, but you aren’t exactly an apostle.” 😃 To elaborate a bit on my last post, basically, every major modern religion has some sort of expressly articulated claim of omni-benevolence or at least omni-forgiveness, as far as I am aware. I can’t reconcile that with a belief that there would be infinite punishment for finite sin. Those Gods are also claimed to be omniscient. If so, they can tell that my disbelief is honest, and not predicated on simply wanting to avoid their stated rules. Given the above, I can’t find myself worrying. I’d be thinking “I wonder how this is a hoax” right up until the big guy showed up in front of me and said “hey, wake up–believe in me now that you have the evidence?” and we’d be cool. And if not, well, Buddhism is essentially a vehicle for dealing with the fact that the world pretty much sucks. Hell would give me ample opportunity to refine that. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/195 "2010-06-15T21:09:00Z")
Even if we wind up in hell, as Buddhists we get out eventually. I figure, the worst thing I do is probably just gonna mean 5 more minutes as a scorpion. I say this as one agnosto-Buddhist to another. ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/196 "2010-06-15T21:49:38Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > Just one of the many examples of what I am talking about! > > “Just like we should all go into a rage at the OP for teaching us about Marmitism” I sincerely apologize for offending you. I was really just trying to make sense of the scenario in your hypothetical along with your further explanations. And having a bit of fun with my mocking, which was directed at the bizzarre hypothetical but not at you personally. The OP describes a situation that I absolutely cannot comprehend: that I would be damned for my non-belief in a hybrid version of Christianity and Islam that I have never heard of, with no consideration given for my actual actions during mortality. As I understood your additional comments, it seems I am now even more likely to be damned because I am no longer ignorant that such beliefs may exist. I would not have used the word “miracle” to describe the OP (not that I’m criticizing your use of English, just sayin’ the OP was not what I was expecting after I read the title). To me, a “miracle” is a faith-promoting _good_ event, like supernaturally healing the sick. If I saw an actual miracle (as _I_ understand the word) tomorrow, then I would weigh it along with other evidences and gut feelings in re-evaluating my belief or disbelief in any particular flavor of God. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/197 "2010-06-15T23:38:48Z")
Seriously?.. I’d go and turn myself over to the devil. Really. Since I’m going there anyway, I’d go and cut a deal for the taking of my soul early in exchange for some minor power and lack of torment in hell. The worst that happens is I die early and get it over with, the best is that I get to skip the worst of the torments and have to deal only with the eternal separation from god. Which considering how I lead my current life, shouldn’t be too bad. When the eventual battle comes, I’ll fight on Satan’s side, and if indeed we lose, then I’ll be lost to oblivion which beats eternal suffering. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/198 "2010-06-16T00:08:23Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > I thought Jews believed that Jesus was a false prophet a false messiah. > That was why Caiphas has him condemned to death.😕 Wrong. Neither being a false prophet nor proclaiming yourself the messiah is a capital crime. The proper response to any Jew’s claim to be the messiah is simply to ask them to prove it. Further, the trial reported in the Gospels is rife with errors. The time the sanhedrin is said to have convened is wrong. The penalty of crucifixion is a Roman penalty. A Sanhedrin would have imposed death by stoning. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/199 "2010-06-16T02:18:42Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > Very little respect shown here to people of religion. You should try earning respect, rather than assuming it is your right arising out of your belief in your god. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/200 "2010-06-16T02:46:40Z")
> [@Rhodes](#): > > The OP describes a situation that I absolutely cannot comprehend: that I would be damned for my non-belief in a hybrid version of Christianity and Islam that I have never heard of, with no consideration given for my actual actions during mortality. It’s standard Muslim belief that Jesus was a prophet second only to Mohammed. Marmite had Jesus coming down from the sky for the same reason a Christian might imagine Moses coming down from the sky to tell the Jews that they should have believed in the divinity of Jesus. Actually Elijah would be the more strict parallel, since Elijah was supposed to have been taken bodily into heaven instead of dying, and he’s supposed to come back and vouch that the Messiah is the real deal. Muslims also believe that Jesus was taken into heaven without dying. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792.md?page=11)