# If you saw a miracle tomorrow **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 11, 2010, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792 "2010-06-11T13:19:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/101 "2010-06-14T14:25:56Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > That’s why the Quran makes much more sense to Muslims than the Old and New testaments. > Problem is the Muslims have the hadith as fakery I believe. Just to parse this, you’re saying that Hadith suffer from the same kind of problems as the Christian Bible, right? (Honest question, just parsing this) ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/102 "2010-06-14T14:29:03Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > (Weirdly, he also seems to be converting to Islam over the course of the thread, but that’s another selling point.) No, I think his OP supports Islam, as well. Hell is literal, but Jesus was merely a prophet. That’s Islam, isn’t it? (Jewish theology is that Jesus was a prophet, but hell is not a literal flame filled place, and Christian theology teaches that Jesus was God and hell is literal.) ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/103 "2010-06-14T14:41:15Z")
The the various gods have not been about since prior to FIFA World Cup, so I’d sign them up for Team Canada, so that we could get a team into the next FIFA World Cup series. (I don’t think we’ve had a team in the FIFA Word Cup since 1986.) I figure that we might as well put the gods to work at something that will not harm people, unlike the way the gods would have it if left to their own devices. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/104 "2010-06-14T14:45:23Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > No, I think his OP supports Islam, as well. Hell is literal, but Jesus was merely a prophet. That’s Islam, isn’t it? (Jewish theology is that Jesus was a prophet, but hell is not a literal flame filled place, and Christian theology teaches that Jesus was God and hell is literal.) Hm. But why did Jesus float down? Plus, the OP’s Jesus is also pissed at the Muslims. Most confusing. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/105 "2010-06-14T14:57:04Z")
If these gods were actually taking themselves seriously, I’d convert to Judaism, wait while Jay-sus kills off the other prophet, and then I’d kill off Jay-sus just like the first time. Then I’d un-convert, and sit back to continue watching the game, as I had been doing before these god were so rude and impertinent as to interrupt. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/106 "2010-06-14T15:34:13Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > Miracle on TV? > > I’d come post here. -maybe not HERE… cafe society probably. -you think security would be on Jesus like white on rice. -odd that the soccer match would be the medium of choice. which match? wouldn’t it be easier to twitter? -deep down i’d be a little shaken though, but i suppose anyone is once their own mortality is in jeopardy (even hypothetically, even a little bit). maybe i’d pray? and if someone answers this time, i’d know for sure that something is up? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/107 "2010-06-14T15:38:07Z")
Collectively? Vote them off the island. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/108 "2010-06-14T16:36:36Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Jewish theology is that Jesus was a prophet Nope. ---
**Author:** ![Pazu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pazu/32/15522_2.png) [@Pazu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pazu)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/109 "2010-06-14T16:39:07Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > **WhyNot** Sekhmet doesn’t worry me. Nor do any of the Egyptian pantheon. Our G-d went toe to toe with Ra, Horus and the rest. They lost. Well, at least he showed who had the bigger snake. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/110 "2010-06-14T16:43:00Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Nope. Well, teacher. Rabbi. I was trying to use the OPs terms, I guess. My bad. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/111 "2010-06-14T17:08:23Z")
Snarky answer: Given that god has just proved his existence I make a last self effort in self defense to use the [Bable fish argument](http://http://idiom.ucsd.edu/~bakovic/camba_files/misc/ll/babelfish.html) in hopes that he’ll disappear in a poof of logic. Non Snarky answer: Assuming that there was enough evidence that I was convinced it wasn’t a trick, I think my initial reaction would be surprise “Huh, I guess they were right, well I certainly didn’t expect that would be the answer”, followed by some degree of excitement as the fact that there is an afterlife and a god figure means I now understand a great deal about the nature of the universe than I did, and might be able to get answers to some of my other nagging questions about the universe, followed by being a bit bummed out about the whole eternity in flame thing, followed by looking for a tall building to go to the top of to get a good view of the Apocalypse. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/112 "2010-06-14T17:10:08Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Well, teacher. Rabbi. I was trying to use the OPs terms, I guess. My bad. The OP’s only claim regarding Jews was the fictional claim (of course, that his hypothetical Jesus was making) that the Jews killed Jesus. Even in his view in which the Jews are the case of anti-Semitism, I don’t think he’d argue that the Jews view(ed) Jesus as a prophet. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/113 "2010-06-14T17:11:59Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > Hmmmmmmmm… > > that’s a good one. > > Well I suppose I’d probably think it was some kind of test. Could it be the devil playing tricks? > Testing your faith. > > I think in that situation I’d probably think that was the case. > > I suppose though that the next few minutes or hours would prove to me one way or the other what was beyond this life. > > No one knows for sure do they. Not an honest answer to the question, considering that, according to _your_ rules, there is no trickery involved and the appearance is the real deal. Care to try again? ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/114 "2010-06-14T17:12:41Z")
I want to revise my answer. When Jesus floats down during the World cup, I’m willing to believe in him right then if he will silence the vuvuzelas. That would be a true and welcome miracle. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/115 "2010-06-14T17:18:22Z")
One point that this thread makes clear is that humanity is absolutely ripe for conquest by any alien power with technology just a few centuries ahead of us. Why invade and spend trillions of intergalactic space bucks on a military campaign when they just have to monitor the airwaves to see what religions we follow and then send a few holograms down to tell each religion that theirs is the One True Faith and that they have to deal harshly with all the others? There are certainly more than a few people who will react to “It’s doing something I can not explain!” with “So it must be God.” that the aliens could have an easy time of setting up some whiz bang nifty religious wars and then just coming in to mop up the remnants. ---
**Author:** ![Strassia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Strassia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strassia)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/116 "2010-06-14T17:48:43Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > great point > > a distorted message > > That is what the Quran says happened and will happen. You miss the point. What if what you saw was the person now known as the Prophet Mohamed **not** writing or composing the Quran as dictated by a deity, but instead working with others to fabricate it for the cynical purpose of manipulating his followers. In other words, to go along with the spirit of your OP, what would be your reaction to proof you could deny (in whatever form that would be) that your religion was founded by a charlatan and your holy book was a fabricated to deceive people like you. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/117 "2010-06-14T17:51:31Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > Well I suppose I’d probably think it was some kind of test. Could it be the devil playing tricks? > Testing your faith. > > I think in that situation I’d probably think that was the case. > > I suppose though that the next few minutes or hours would prove to me one way or the other what was beyond this life. So your initial response to seeing Quetzecoatl performing a miracle would be to try to fit it into your current Abrahamic frame – it’s the devil, it’s a trick, I’m being tested, etc. Which is very similar to how the atheists responded – it’s a trick, I’m hallucinating, it’s space aliens, etc. How much evidence would it require to convince you that your current beliefs are false, and that the gods of the Aztecs are true? If a week went by with the Aztec gods walking the earth, would that do it? A month? A year? If Tezcatlipoca sat down with you, one-on-one, and answered all your questions, would that do it? And once you were convinced that the Aztec gods were true, would you sacrifice to them? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/118 "2010-06-14T17:58:29Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > but that’s the point > > you don’t have to follow a religion > > it’s all about believing in a creator I thought by now it was too late to start believing. The second coming has happened, and somewhere from 99.9 to 100.0 percent of humanity is screwed to hell and -well, okay, we’re not coming back. > [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > I agree and that is why we if we are interested that is question what is real. What was really said, what happened and what was distorted by man. > > How much of the bible is fake? > How much of the stories about the prophets are fake. > > How much is true? Well, I’m moderately confident there was a Roman empire. ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/119 "2010-06-14T18:01:36Z")
I honestly don’t think I’d be worried if Jesus appeared and anounced to the world that we were all wrong. Surprised, yes, but not alarmed. In the OP’s scenarion, nearly everyone in all of history was wrong about the nature of God and Jesus. Is that a cause for them to be endlessly punished? I have always believed what the evidence and my gut feelings have told me to believe. Surely this isn’t a sin. And I strive to act in the best interests of my fellow humans. So even if I am wrong about God and Jesus, why should I fear the Judgement? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/120 "2010-06-14T18:12:38Z")
> [@Rhodes](#): > > I honestly don’t think I’d be worried if Jesus appeared and anounced to the world that we were all wrong. Surprised, yes, but not alarmed. > > In the OP’s scenarion, nearly everyone in all of history was wrong about the nature of God and Jesus. Is that a cause for them to be endlessly punished? > > I have always believed what the evidence and my gut feelings have told me to believe. Surely this isn’t a sin. And I strive to act in the best interests of my fellow humans. So even if I am wrong about God and Jesus, why should I fear the Judgement? The OP’s scenario is also pretty explicit that all the non-believers are going to hell and eternal torment, do not pass go, no last chances, no exceptions, no excuses. I certainly agree that there would be no possible moral _justificaion_ for this mass damnation, but it’s apparently on us nonetheless. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792.md?page=7)