# If you saw a miracle tomorrow **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 11, 2010, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792 "2010-06-11T13:19:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/141 "2010-06-14T21:56:34Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > I still don’t get why Jesus is the one announcing the dominion of Marmslam Seems to be icing on the cake… “My view of religion is the only correct one, and your own false messiah is telling you so. Eat it. Eat it!” ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/142 "2010-06-14T23:32:40Z")
This thread seems to have evolved into somewhat of a repeat of [what would it take to change an Atheist’s mind?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9239859). [Here’s what it would take to change my mind.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9239859&postcount=165) ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/143 "2010-06-15T01:22:19Z")
If this is what Jesus is like as a person, I’m happy to have not followed Him. He sounds like a real jerk. ---
**Author:** ![kombatminipig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b5ac83/32.png) [@kombatminipig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kombatminipig)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/144 "2010-06-15T08:56:54Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > Jews killed him. I would dress my best, step up to the podium and solemnly declare the following to Jesus, our Lord and savior, son of God Almighty: \*\* _“Hey, what the fuck are you doing back here? We fucking capped your ass the last time, you little bitch! Yeah, Mr. son of Goooooooooood. I don’t fucking care who yer daddeh is, you get your scrawny little ass the fuck out of here, you son of a silly person, before we get to ‘know’ you. This is our house! Wooo! Jews RUUUUUULE. God sucks a dick.”_\*\* Hey, as an atheist jew, guilty of several acts of sodomy, I’m already pretty fucked. May as well go out in style. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/145 "2010-06-15T11:43:38Z")
Perhaps the greatest miracle would be: in the blink of an eye all humans would see (at the same time) and understand the truth. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/146 "2010-06-15T11:47:04Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > Perhaps the greatest miracle would be: in the blink of an eye all humans would see (at the same time) and understand the truth. And what would that truth be? ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/147 "2010-06-15T11:52:00Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And what would that truth be? That Jesus was a malformed balding hunchback. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/148 "2010-06-15T12:02:23Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#): > > That Jesus was a malformed balding hunchback. With a wandering eye and a limp alternating on either side. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/149 "2010-06-15T13:00:57Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > Just to parse this, you’re saying that Hadith suffer from the same kind of problems as the Christian Bible, right? (Honest question, just parsing this) Do you know much about hadith? Have you read the Quran? Do you know much about Islam? I can answer you but I need to know what you know already. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/150 "2010-06-15T13:04:10Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > Do you know much about hadith? > Have you read the Quran? > Do you know much about Islam? > > I can answer you but I need to know what you know already. A lot. Anything I don’t know, somebody else does. Go for it. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/151 "2010-06-15T13:07:42Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Hell is literal, but Jesus was merely a prophet. That’s Islam, isn’t it? (Jewish theology is that Jesus was a prophet, but hell is not a literal flame filled place, and Christian theology teaches that Jesus was God and hell is literal.) I thought Jews believed that Jesus was a false prophet a false messiah. That was why Caiphas has him condemned to death.😕 ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/152 "2010-06-15T13:21:22Z")
> [@Rhodes](#): > > I have always believed what the evidence and my gut feelings have told me to believe. Surely this isn’t a sin. And I strive to act in the best interests of my fellow humans. So even if I am wrong about God and Jesus, why should I fear the Judgement? well Muslims would argue that a third book came with Mohammed to correct what was previously changed in the other books, so they believe that you (Christians if you believe Jesus was part of a trinity) had the opportunity to read it and change your beliefs back to one God and not a trinity. It makes you wonder how many Christians have actually read the Quran. They say that many who do then go on to convert to Islam. I have no idea if that is true or not, but it would seem likely. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/153 "2010-06-15T13:29:00Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > The OP’s scenario is also pretty explicit that all the non-believers are going to hell and eternal torment, do not pass go, no last chances, no exceptions, no excuses. I certainly agree that there would be no possible moral _justificaion_ for this mass damnation, but it’s apparently on us nonetheless. no no no That is not what I meant. Maybe I have written it wrong. In Islam it is believed that everyone who is born is a believer in one God. So for example some tribe in the middle of the jungle say who had no access to the Abrahamic faiths. Will die a believer ( Muslim ) that is what the word means. It is the people who have knowledge of the books and have either distorted them, corrupted and changed the meaning, left out chapters and verses, left out apocrypha, teach something totally different to the meaning, also the people who have heard about the Quran but ignored it or don’t believe it. These are the ones that Muslims believe God is talking about in the Quran to be the unbelievers. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/154 "2010-06-15T13:33:01Z")
So, the Islamic faith gives more credit to the ignorant than the questioning? That figures. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/155 "2010-06-15T13:34:08Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > well Muslims would argue that a third book came with Mohammed to correct what was previously changed in the other books, so they believe that you (Christians if you believe Jesus was part of a trinity) had the opportunity to read it and change your beliefs back to one God and not a trinity. > > It makes you wonder how many Christians have actually read the Quran. Have you read the Book of Mormon? Since it’s the most recent of the major revelations, it seems like it would trump the Koran as “God’s final word on the matter”. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/156 "2010-06-15T13:45:13Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > A lot. Anything I don’t know, somebody else does. Go for it. so what is your question? ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/157 "2010-06-15T13:47:15Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > So, the Islamic faith gives more credit to the ignorant than the questioning? That figures. no ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/158 "2010-06-15T13:55:00Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Have you read the Book of Mormon? Since it’s the most recent of the major revelations, it seems like it would trump the Koran as “God’s final word on the matter”. no have many people? ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/159 "2010-06-15T14:07:38Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > Just to parse this, you’re saying that Hadith suffer from the same kind of problems as the Christian Bible, right? (Honest question, just parsing this) This was the question asked. You dodged it on the grounds that we didn’t know enough. Try again. Also, since the Koran apparently can only truly be read in Arabic, most non-Arabic speakers are already pretty committed at that point, so your conversion-after-reading argument is pretty weak. I’ve read it in English translation and became a Buddhist. I’ve also read the Book of Mormon, since you asked. It’s awesome. ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/160 "2010-06-15T14:16:54Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > > [@Rhodes](#): > > > > I have always believed what the evidence and my gut feelings have told me to believe. Surely this isn’t a sin. And I strive to act in the best interests of my fellow humans. So even if I am wrong about God and Jesus, why should I fear the Judgement? > > well Muslims would argue that a third book came with Mohammed to correct what was previously changed in the other books, so they believe that you (Christians if you believe Jesus was part of a trinity) had the opportunity to read it and change your beliefs back to one God and not a trinity. > > It makes you wonder how many Christians have actually read the Quran. > > They say that many who do then go on to convert to Islam. I have no idea if that is true or not, but it would seem likely. You seemed to have missed my point. I have always believed what the evidence and my gut feelings have caused me to believe. Is it a sin to believe what makes sense to me? Would it be more virtuous to pretend to believe something else just because someone says to? Am I offending God by my inability to believe in Marmitism? I am a flawed human as is everyone else, but I try to act in the best interests of my fellow humans. Will my eternal reward or punishment depend on my actions (which I can control) or on my beliefs (which are beyond my control)? In your view of the final Judgement, who will have a better afterlife: 1) an atheist who, through his actions, improved the lives of all who knew him in some small way, or 2) a believer in Marmitism who, despite his sincere belief, was an incorrigible asshole? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792.md?page=9)