# If you saw a miracle tomorrow **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 11, 2010, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792 "2010-06-11T13:19:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/161 "2010-06-15T14:20:25Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > I thought Jews believed that Jesus was a false prophet a false messiah. > That was why Caiphas has him condemned to death.😕 Yes, that was already addressed on the last page, and I admitted I chose the wrong word because I was trying to make sense of your OP. Thanks loads, though, for bringing my embarrassing error up again on the page turn though. Much appreciated. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/162 "2010-06-15T14:37:09Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > What would be going through your mind. I’d figure I was having someone else’s hallucination. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/163 "2010-06-15T16:08:18Z")
I’d update my facebook status to: **Mattias Stenberg:** is going to hell… (god is a bastard) ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/164 "2010-06-15T16:18:35Z")
Gotta wonder, why do so many people belive that others should share their halucination? ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/165 "2010-06-15T16:46:28Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > Do you know much about hadith? Define “much” if you want to play such games. > [@](#): > > Have you read the Quran? No, nor do I intend to. > [@](#): > > Do you know much about Islam ? Whatever 20 years of being around African and Indo-Pak Muslims in work and so forth has taught me, plus various readings, as I enjoy reading colonial history. > [@](#): > > I can answer you but I need to know what you know already. Why not just give a bloody straight answer instead of some god-damned 20 questions. You’re not going to convert or convince anyone here of very much with this style of response. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/166 "2010-06-15T16:47:32Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > This was the question asked. You dodged it on the grounds that we didn’t know enough. Try again. > Also, since the Koran apparently can only truly be read in Arabic, most non-Arabic speakers are already pretty committed at that point, so your conversion-after-reading argument is pretty weak. I’ve read it in English translation and became a Buddhist. > I’ve also read the Book of Mormon, since you asked. It’s awesome. Why are you quoting me? ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/167 "2010-06-15T16:52:06Z")
I was quoting the question you asked, as **Marmite** dodged it. Sorry if it wasn’t clear. All the context below was meant to be addressed to\*\* Marmite\*\*. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/168 "2010-06-15T17:16:33Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > I thought Jews believed that Jesus was a false prophet a false messiah. > That was why Caiphas has him condemned to death. You really should learn more about Jews before deciding you don’t like them. Not being a prophet or messiah while claiming that you are, is not a crime under Jewish law and wasn’t at the time, either. To say nothing of the fact that it was Pilate who killed Jesus because he represented a thread to control. To say nothing of the fact that your rather obvious claims that it was “the Jews” who killed Jesus instead of “a Jew” evinces the same kind of worldview that seeks to tar an entire group of people for the actions of a few. Like “the Muslims carried out 9/11!” > [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > In Islam it is believed that everyone who is born is a believer in one God. Rather bizarre belief considering that many people obviously do not believe in one God. But if you’re trying to artificially increase inflate your importance, seems a good way to go about it. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/169 "2010-06-15T17:35:44Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > > > > [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > > > > > no no no > > > > > > That is not what I meant. > > > > > > Maybe I have written it wrong. > > > > > > In Islam it is believed that everyone who is born is a believer in one God. > > > > > > So for example some tribe in the middle of the jungle say who had no access to the Abrahamic faiths. Will die a believer ( Muslim ) that is what the word means. > > > > > > It is the people who have knowledge of the books and have either distorted them, corrupted and changed the meaning, left out chapters and verses, left out apocrypha, teach something totally different to the meaning, also the people who have heard about the Quran but ignored it or don’t believe it. These are the ones that Muslims believe God is talking about in the Quran to be the unbelievers. > > > > So, the Islamic faith gives more credit to the ignorant than the questioning? That figures. > > no “The people who have heard about the Quran but ignored it or don’t believe it” includes every non-muslim on the planet who has heard of islam. Which is probably 98% of the non-muslim adults in the western world. And it certainly includes every non-muslim in this thread. Basically, it’s “a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing” written in large print in hellfire. There are only two safe ways to be - completely knowledgeable and correct about everything, or completely ignorant. Since you can’t read god’s mind, the chances that you are the first is slim. And either way whenever you mention the Quran to anybody you are deliberately risking damning them to hellfire (on the off-chance they might have been previously unaware). As it happens Mormonism holds a similar philosophy regarding complete ignorance being a “get out of hell free” card, and thus by their own doctorine their missionaires are spreading damnation wherever they go. Not that they realize this any more than you have. ---
**Author:** ![InterestedObserver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@InterestedObserver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InterestedObserver)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/170 "2010-06-15T17:58:47Z")
Well, not an athiest myself, but also not a subscriber to any particular religious dogma. I think we continue beyond death and have a higher purpose, but that it doesn’t matter one iota which religion we follow or if we follow any…Don’t believe in any Heaven or Hell other the self-created kind. Just in the interests of full disclosure. I wouldn’t buy it, period. Not at face value anyway. I would assume some human technological trickery or that some alien intelligence was fucking with us for its own reasons. (An experiment into human gullability, perhaps). I’m open to a lot that many here aren’t, but I’m not open to the idea that Christianity (or Islam or any other religious belief system) as currently understood, is “THE WAY”…I outgrew that sort of thinking by the time I was 14 or so. I’d watch with great interest and wait for the punchline. Probably make some popcorn and invite a few friends over. 😃 I would not be terrified or even mildly concerned re’ my own eternal fate…in my belief system, I am either biomass/fertilizer or an eternal, Divine spiritual being…either way, death can’t hurt me. But then, I’m cynical like that…to all those who think 2012 will be the end of the world, I say, “Cool! I won’t have to pay off my student loans!” 🆒 Every generation, including that of Jesus, was certain they were living in the “end times”. I don’t think we get off that easy…it’s more complex than that. ---
**Author:** ![InterestedObserver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@InterestedObserver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InterestedObserver)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/171 "2010-06-15T18:20:37Z")
I also wanted to add but missed the edit window: I was raised as a Christian, and the Bible states very clearly that false prophets/Christs will appear; people will say, “Look, He is there, out in the desert! Go see!” But that we are not to listen to them or believe any such tales, even if we witness something which appears miraculous or proof. The Bible says that when Jesus returns, it will be “in the clouds” and “in the twinkling of an eye” and “every eye shall see Him”. There will be no doubt whatsoever. This doesn’t mesh with this scenario…one could argue that a worldwide telecast accounts for how “every eye” on a round planet could simultaneously witness such a celestial event, but that’s still bullshit, imo…a great many people lack access to (or interest IN) such technologies. And as this thread demonstrates, a great many would refuse to accept the reality of the situation regardless. IMO, these Biblical passages, IF they have any truth to them at all (which of course, is debatable) speak of some mental/spiritual “second coming” which functions on an internal level…a sort of global, species-wide epiphany in which every single human being crosses a threshhold of awareness and KNOWS. Some have interpreted it as the Christ/Light Spirit entering into humanity and incarnating physically into billions of bodies at once (as it is said to have done to Jesus upon his Baptism…he was not born “Christ”.) At any rate, I am not a believer in a literal Bible or Christianity, but I would tend to take the advice given and not accept ANY such apparent “miracle” or interpretation of it. ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/172 "2010-06-15T18:56:24Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > … > As it happens Mormonism holds a similar philosophy regarding complete ignorance being a “get out of hell free” card, and thus by their own doctorine their missionaires are spreading damnation wherever they go. Not that they realize this any more than you have. At least some Mormons are aware of the irony. I used to be a Mormon, and as a missionary I was aware that every person who rejected me would be held accountable. The basic idea was that God would make it all right in the end, and that posthumous baptisms were offered to the unbelievers as well as the truly ignorant. To be fair, the Mormon concept of damnation has nothing in common with the OP. Hell and damnation are the realization that one has not fulfilled one’s full potential, but nearly all souls receive at least some form of salvation in an afterlife that is somewhat better than our mortal lives. (Apostates like myself, however, are a whole 'nother story!) But I agree with you that Mormons teach that the totally ignorant will be judged better than those who outright rejected Mormonism, and thus the missionaries are in a sense “spreading damnation wherever they go.” ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/173 "2010-06-15T19:04:39Z")
> [@Rhodes](#): > > At least some Mormons are aware of the irony. > > I used to be a Mormon, and as a missionary I was aware that every person who rejected me would be held accountable. The basic idea was that God would make it all right in the end, and that posthumous baptisms were offered to the unbelievers as well as the truly ignorant. > > To be fair, the Mormon concept of damnation has nothing in common with the OP. Hell and damnation are the realization that one has not fulfilled one’s full potential, but nearly all souls receive at least some form of salvation in an afterlife that is somewhat better than our mortal lives. (Apostates like myself, however, are a whole 'nother story!) I’m aware that the Mormon model of the afterlife has only a vague relationship with the ‘usual’ Christian model; I just elected not to get into the details lest it confuse my point. And I didn’t think that they bothered with posthumous baptisms for anyone they knew had rejected it - at least, that’s not what I was taught the point was. Though to be fair the mormons I know don’t think that merely rejecting the church qualifies you for outer darkness on account of you lacking full knowledge. (They actually think it’s a rather empty place.) Obviously though, YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/174 "2010-06-15T19:21:02Z")
Sooooo…The next time a Mormon missionary comes to my door, I should feign total ignorance of their beliefs, then ask about people who are ignorant - what happens to them - then go into a rage because they’ve condemned me to hell. Got it. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/175 "2010-06-15T19:25:20Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#): > > That Jesus was a malformed balding hunchback. Is that you, Karl? Karl Glogauer? ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/176 "2010-06-15T19:45:16Z")
Many here seem to think that what I say is what I believe. If you notice and took the time you would see that I am saying this is what is believed in Islam or by Muslims in general. I have not stated what I believe but many here assume things which are not true. You are twisting what I say and it is the same user names time and time again doing this. There have only been a very few member here who have understood what I have said so it can’t be me or my understanding. Whether or not I agree with them or not doesn’t matter. At least they have not acted like most of you have. I am fed up with members acting in this way and contorting what I say. I am also fed up with the language, the insults and sarcasm. If that is the general way you address people then I leave it to your kind. This is not the way of my culture. Manners are very important. Quite a few posts have no meaning for me because my English is limited but this is taken advantage of time and time again. There is no room for understanding of another’s lack of language understanding so I will leave this board to you all. It seems that it is more fun for some here to criticise my grammar and English than to try just a little to interpret what I might be meaning. There is a very clear bias here shown to certain members. I noticed a few other members have mentioned this also. Not a forum I’d ever encourage a friend to join sadly. The Egyptian guy I asked to answer one of you a while back said a few pages of reading was enough for him. Different cultures, different idea of manners obviously. Not for me. ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/177 "2010-06-15T19:47:33Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > Sooooo…The next time a Mormon missionary comes to my door, I should feign total ignorance of their beliefs, then ask about people who are ignorant - what happens to them - then go into a rage because they’ve condemned me to hell. > > Got it. Exactly right. Just like we should all go into a rage at the OP for teaching us about Marmitism. Prior to reading the OP, I was completely ignorant of the existence of a non-divine Jesus who is the spokesperson for a strange branch of Islam. Now that I have rejected and mocked such a concept, I am destined for Jumbotron Hell. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/178 "2010-06-15T19:56:28Z")
Just one of the many examples of what I am talking about! “Just like we should all go into a rage at the OP for teaching us about Marmitism” ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/179 "2010-06-15T19:58:08Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > Many here seem to think that what I say is what I believe. If you notice and took the time you would see that I am saying this is what is believed in Islam or by Muslims in general. I have not stated what I believe but many here assume things which are not true. > > You are twisting what I say and it is the same user names time and time again doing this. > There have only been a very few member here who have understood what I have said so it can’t be me or my understanding. Whether or not I agree with them or not doesn’t matter. At least they have not acted like most of you have. > > I am fed up with members acting in this way and contorting what I say. > I am also fed up with the language, the insults and sarcasm. If that is the general way you address people then I leave it to your kind. This is not the way of my culture. Manners are very important. > > Quite a few posts have no meaning for me because my English is limited but this is taken advantage of time and time again. > There is no room for understanding of another’s lack of language understanding so I will leave this board to you all. > > It seems that it is more fun for some here to criticise my grammar and English than to try just a little to interpret what I might be meaning. > > There is a very clear bias here shown to certain members. I noticed a few other members have mentioned this also. > > Not a forum I’d ever encourage a friend to join sadly. The Egyptian guy I asked to answer one of you a while back said a few pages of reading was enough for him. > > Different cultures, different idea of manners obviously. > > Not for me. Oh come on. We’re trying. You proposed a rather bizarre scenario, and people have given some bizarre responses. I don’t think you’ve had more grammar or English language harassment than is given to native English speakers here - possibly less, as I don’t recall any off the top of my head. Have we contorted what you say? Maybe, but at least half of the contorting has been trying to make sense of the scenario you put forward - Why, for example, is Jesus the guy appearing, since his story is not ‘the truth’, in this scenario. It’s a bit confusing. Why not Gabriel, or the Prophet. You also, as you admit, have not told us what you believe, leaving us to suppose that you believe the kind of Islam that you’re describing. Feel free to explain more. Don’t know what the bias is, but your opening post is going to attract Atheists more than it will attract the devout, so you ought to not be surprised by who’s in the thread. If you think this is rough, go dig up the old ‘Ask the Buddhist’ thread. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792/180 "2010-06-15T19:59:51Z")
I would also think that many Christians reading this would be highly offended by reading some of your descriptions of Jesus. Hump backed etc. Quite shocking actually. Quite sad and very ignorant. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-saw-a-miracle-tomorrow/542792.md?page=10)