# If you support the troops you support the war
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-support-the-troops-you-support-the-war/318561
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [August 25, 2005, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-support-the-troops-you-support-the-war/318561 "2005-08-25T14:12:17Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)
#### Post date: [August 25, 2005, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-support-the-troops-you-support-the-war/318561/21 "2005-08-25T21:30:04Z")
> [@Gaudere](#):
>
> [Moderator Hat ON]
>
> jrfranchi, do NOT direct the putz smilie at another poster in Great Debates. newcrasher, cool it with implying other posters are nazis.
>
> [Moderator Hat OFF]
That’s new to me, but Okay. I had an overly strong reaction to a driveby hate monger. He makes any of us that completely support the troops look like idiots.
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### Author:  [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)
#### Post date: [August 25, 2005, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-support-the-troops-you-support-the-war/318561/22 "2005-08-25T21:33:23Z")
> [@newcrasher](#):
>
> You are kidding me right?
>
> There are smily restictions? Please keep us safe from those bad smilies, oh moderator, defender of the realm and slayer of vicious emoticons!
>
> * * *
>
> Furthermore, **Contradancer** made comments about wishing exile upon Rush Limbaugh and daydreaming about the death of Drudge. There is a rule against wishing death upon people in the friggin’ PIT! But you instead want me to ease up on my Nazi references? Well having those objectionable to your agenda shipped off or dead is a tactic used by the Nazis. So pardon me if I make reference to said group.
>
> Since I have paid to use this board, I expect to be able to exercise free speech as long as I go by the rules established here. I do not think my comment was out of line or out of context and I do not apologize for it. I do not toss about the Nazi tag lightly, and when I do I do not expect to be called down for it.
>
> Suspend me, ban me, whatever. I will tell a poster if I feel he expressed notions that are best uttered when wearing jackboots.
One small nitpick, this is great debates not pit
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### Author:  [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)
#### Post date: [August 25, 2005, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-support-the-troops-you-support-the-war/318561/23 "2005-08-25T21:54:27Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#):
>
> One small nitpick, this is great debates not pit
I know that. My point was that the type of language about Rush and Drudge would not be tolerated even IN THE PIT!..much less the GD.
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### Author:  [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)
#### Post date: [August 25, 2005, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-support-the-troops-you-support-the-war/318561/24 "2005-08-25T22:02:58Z")
The “death wish” rule applies specifically to death wishes upon _posters_. Certainly you could, for example, wish death on Osama bin Laden. (Not too graphic, though, please.) And the Drudge death was not even serious, unless you really think people can die of “lying disease”. It was (to me) obvious hyperbole. Further discussion of this, however, should take place in the Pit or via email, it is a hijack of the thread.
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [August 25, 2005, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-support-the-troops-you-support-the-war/318561/25 "2005-08-25T22:04:20Z")
> [@lekatt](#):
>
> I realize this is an ultra left board, and most of the posters detest anyone who disagrees with them. But a few observations.
Ultra left ? Do you have _any idea_ what the “ultra left” is like ?! There are “environmentalists” who want to solve our ecological problems by killing everybody; there people who think we should all go off and be hunter gatherers and live in the woods; there are “feminists” who talk about exterminating men. SDMB is rather middle of the road; you don’t see many “destroy humanity” extreme Greens any more than you see many neonazis advocating the extermination of the lesser races.
( Note to anyone offended : I’m not slamming the left; I’m rather to the left myself. I’m just pointing out to lekatt that he/she seems to have a strange idea of what “ultra” anything is like. )
> [@lekatt](#):
>
> ]The OP has the facts of the situation very mixed up, not a statement made is true in what was said. Wars are not started by old men in arm chairs. There were direct attacks on American interests in WWII, and in this Iraq war. We are reacting to those direct attacks.
There were no attacks by Iraq on us; this war is unprovoked aggression. And yes, wars generally _are_ usually started by old men, who send out the young to die. That’s just the way it is.
> [@lekatt](#):
>
> ]During WWII there were Gold Star mothers on every block, and not a one protested the war that I know of. I would like to know where the money is coming from to back the ads by Cindy, are they coming from leftest interests or indirectly from the insurgents. I can think of nothing the enemy would like better than to have more and more of these sick ads on American television.
Of course, a woman couldn’t _possibly_ feel actual sorrow at her son’s death, and nobody could _possibly_ feel sympathy for her or believe this war is stupid and unjust; it _has_ to be a plot by evil “leftists” or “insurgents”.
> [@lekatt](#):
>
> ]No war has been without its opposition, I think that is healthy, but to play into the hands of the foe is regrettable. The Cindy’s do not speak for the majority of American mothers who have lost their sons.
So you think the reaction of the average bereaved mother is “Whee ! Kill more of our kids ?”
> [@lekatt](#):
>
> ]But Americans will go on fighting for our freedom and the freedom of others so you detractors will have the right to speak your minds without fear of being jailed.
We aren’t fighting for anybody’s freedom; we’re fighting for Haliburton and PNAC and the Christian conservatives.
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### Author:  [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)
#### Post date: [August 25, 2005, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-support-the-troops-you-support-the-war/318561/26 "2005-08-25T22:08:32Z")
> [@Gaudere](#):
>
> “Putz!” is a insult, whether it is expressed by a smilie or not. Calling people Nazis has never been allowed, and besides is rather silly unless they have invaded Poland. We do get the occaisional neo-nazi, and should we get an actual member of the Nazis here you can call them “Nazi” all you like.
>
> You appear to be unfamilar with [the rules](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=220232) established here, or you would have known about the Putz and Nazi rules before; the Putz smilie even is specifically mentioned in the stickies. If you DO follow the rules established on this board, you should not have trouble; if you are determined to flout them, though, you will get banned.
I didn’t see any references to Nazi’s, but I did find "Do not post threats or state or imply that any individual or group is deserving of harm. " However you did not feel like enforcing that one for Rush or Drudge.
So let me get this right…if someone says they dream of a political foe being exiled, or even that they die of a dreaded disease, that is ok.
But if I point out, rather obliquely, that relocation of your foes and wishing death on them is a tactic employed in Nazi Germany, I have done a “Bad Thing”.
I just want to be clear.
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### Author:  [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)
#### Post date: [August 25, 2005, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-support-the-troops-you-support-the-war/318561/27 "2005-08-25T22:28:12Z")
> [@lekatt](#):
>
> There were direct attacks on American interests in WWII, and in this Iraq war. We are reacting to those direct attacks.
Congratulations! You are the last remaining person who still truly believes that Iraq was responsible for 9/11.
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### Author:  [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)
#### Post date: [August 25, 2005, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-support-the-troops-you-support-the-war/318561/28 "2005-08-25T22:29:54Z")
> [@](#):
>
> I opposed the war because there was peace in 2002.
So the war against the US which had the attack on our homeland on 9-11-01 was settleled by Dec 31st of that year? Could you provide a cite of the peace treaty between Osama and the US?
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### Author:  [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)
#### Post date: [August 25, 2005, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-support-the-troops-you-support-the-war/318561/29 "2005-08-25T22:34:56Z")
> [@Frostillicus](#):
>
> Congratulations! You are the last remaining person who still truly believes that Iraq was responsible for 9/11.
> [@kanicbird](#):
>
> So the war against the US which had the attack on our homeland on 9-11-01 was settleled by Dec 31st of that year? Could you provide a cite of the peace treaty between Osama and the US?
Make that **two** remaining people, **Frostillicus**.
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [August 25, 2005, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-support-the-troops-you-support-the-war/318561/30 "2005-08-25T22:44:00Z")
> [@newcrasher](#):
>
> So let me get this right…if someone says they dream of a political foe being exiled, or even that they die of a dreaded disease, that is ok.
Who the hell is dreading death by “lying disease”?
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### Author:  [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)
#### Post date: [August 25, 2005, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-support-the-troops-you-support-the-war/318561/31 "2005-08-25T23:01:01Z")
> [@kanicbird](#):
>
> So the war against the US which had the attack on our homeland on 9-11-01 was settleled by Dec 31st of that year? Could you provide a cite of the peace treaty between Osama and the US?
Wait, Osama and his crew was running Iraq? What? I need to get me a newspaper. I thought that there was some other guy, Saddam or something, doing the Iraq thing. I know we totalled some other country, Paki-whatsis, trying to get Osama, but he got away. I hadn’t realized that he’d gone and assumed leadership of Iraq after that!
Well, I’m glad you cleared all that up for me. And it’s good to know that we managed to capture Osama this time. We did capture the leader of Iraq, right?
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### Author:  [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)
#### Post date: [August 25, 2005, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-support-the-troops-you-support-the-war/318561/32 "2005-08-25T23:06:21Z")
> [@begbert2](#):
>
> Wait, Osama and his crew was running Iraq? What? I need to get me a newspaper. I thought that there was some other guy, Saddam or something, doing the Iraq thing. I know we totalled some other country, Paki-whatsis, trying to get Osama, but he got away. I hadn’t realized that he’d gone and assumed leadership of Iraq after that!
>
> Well, I’m glad you cleared all that up for me. And it’s good to know that we managed to capture Osama this time. We did capture the leader of Iraq, right?
Yeah we got ol’ Osaddama bin Huladin alright. Elvis and Jack Kennedy led the charge in the Batmobile with a full cavalry right behind 'em. Lee Greenwood wrote the theme song. It was all over FOX News. People seen it.
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### Author:  [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)
#### Post date: [August 26, 2005, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-support-the-troops-you-support-the-war/318561/33 "2005-08-26T00:14:04Z")
> [@contradancer](#):
>
> This statement was the basis for a discussion on a conservative radio talk show this morning.
That’s right, that is exactly what happens. The most important thing to notice is how they frame the debate. It’s the job of the moderator and sometimes it’s done unintentionally. But one of the sides will often diliberately frame the debate. If you support the troops you support the war. That is not an opening arguement. It’s a clever tactic which limits the debate. Then you talking about what needs to be done not what was done wrong. You are then limited to the premise that patriotism is unquestioning support for the Administration, the status quo.
The only way to get out of this trap is to ask questions. So if I were on this radio talk show I would counter his premise by explaining you can support the troops without supporting the war. Just as many Iraqis love the American people but hate Bush. If he didn’t listen and keep repeating “if you support the troops you support the war”, I would ask him what about Americans who were against the war before any troops were on the ground.
Who frames the debate controls the discussion, who controls the discussion limits the debate.
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### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [August 26, 2005, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-support-the-troops-you-support-the-war/318561/34 "2005-08-26T02:21:31Z")
> [@](#):
>
> I realize this is an ultra left board, and most of the posters detest anyone who disagrees with them.
No, we’re a board about fighting ignorance. We try to dispell it, regardless of whether it comes from the right or the left.
> [@](#):
>
> The OP has the facts of the situation very mixed up, not a statement made is true in what was said. Wars are not started by old men in arm chairs. There were direct attacks on American interests in WWII, and in this Iraq war. We are reacting to those direct attacks.
You have your own facts mixed up. There was no attack on the United States in either Iraq war. In the first Iraq war, the United States was part of a coaltion defending Kuwait after it was attacked. In the second Iraq war, the United States declared war on Iraq in the mistaken belief it was producing WMD’s.
> [@](#):
>
> During WWII there were Gold Star mothers on every block, and not a one protested the war that I know of.
Again, you’re mistaken. There were protests against WWII.
> [@](#):
>
> I would like to know where the money is coming from to back the ads by Cindy, are they coming from leftest interests or indirectly from the insurgents. I can think of nothing the enemy would like better than to have more and more of these sick ads on American television.
Some people are in favor of peace because they think it’s better than war. They don’t need anyone to pay them to think this.
> [@](#):
>
> But Americans will go on fighting for our freedom and the freedom of others so you detractors will have the right to speak your minds without fear of being jailed.
A triple score: this war has nothing to do with our freedom of speech, freedom of speech is meaningless unless it’s exercized and that’s the very thing you’re opposing; and people have been jailed by this administration for exercizing what should be the right to speak.
> [@](#):
>
> In the course of my lifetime I have visited many countries, and I thank God I am an American, living in a free country. I know you don’t understand, you couldn’t.
Unfortunately, you seem to be the one who doesn’t understand the freedoms you claim to support. Just because people have different opinions than you, doesn’t mean you love America and they don’t. It’s possible they’re misinformed. It’s even possible you’re the one who’s misinformed.
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### Author:  [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)
#### Post date: [August 26, 2005, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-support-the-troops-you-support-the-war/318561/35 "2005-08-26T02:35:53Z")
Boy \*\*lekatt \*\* pulled off a good hit and run. He sucked us in and derailed the OP. Got myself & \*\*newcrasher \*\* so pissed that we over responded and got warned and of course he doesn’t have the nerve to respond again. I suppose I should pit him now?
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### Author:  [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)
#### Post date: [August 26, 2005, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-support-the-troops-you-support-the-war/318561/36 "2005-08-26T04:26:17Z")
I don’t think the President supports the troops. Or the DOD. If they did, the troops wouldn’t have to depend on their parents to supply protective gear.
And every soldier and marine would have a date when she or he could count on going home.
No one would _have_ to go back a third time.
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### Author:  [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)
#### Post date: [August 26, 2005, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-support-the-troops-you-support-the-war/318561/37 "2005-08-26T04:38:07Z")
> [@Zoe](#):
>
> I don’t think the President supports the troops. Or the DOD. If they did, the troops wouldn’t have to depend on their parents to supply protective gear.
>
> And every soldier and marine would have a date when she or he could count on going home.
>
> No one would _have_ to go back a third time.
I agree much with the your 1st statement.
Second has never been true, in war there is no definate going home date.
Third, would be fair, but are you ready for the draft to come back?
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### Author:  [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)
#### Post date: [August 26, 2005, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-support-the-troops-you-support-the-war/318561/38 "2005-08-26T10:25:06Z")
> [@lekatt](#):
>
> There were direct attacks on American interests in WWII, and in this Iraq war. We are reacting to those direct attacks.
Still waiting to read what those direct Iraqi attacks were.
Gee, support our troops. What the hay does that mean? Does it mean I pay taxes that feed and arm them? Well, duh, of course. Does it mean I’m willing to put a magnetized ribbon on the back of my car? Nope. Don’t know how the ribbon or lack thereof makes a difference. Does it mean I’m grateful that they’re fighting for my freedom? I’m grateful that they _would_ fight for our freedom, but that isn’t what they are doing now. They’re simply pawns of an evil commander on a senseless suicide mission. Doesn’t make them heros or villains. I support them by wanting to end the carnage. In my opinion, you don’t support the troops by sending them off to die for no reason, and that is exactly what this Iraqi quagmire is- death for no reason whatsoever. You don’t support the troops by calling those that disagree with the mission un-patriotic. If they are “fighting for our freedom”, that freedom includes the right to disagree with the mission. You can’t be fighting for freedom in Iraq while suppressing it at home. In my book, those that want to end the war support the troops a heck of a lot more than those that support the war.
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### Author:  [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)
#### Post date: [August 26, 2005, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-support-the-troops-you-support-the-war/318561/39 "2005-08-26T10:26:45Z")
> [@Zoe](#):
>
> I don’t think the President supports the troops. Or the DOD. If they did, the troops wouldn’t have to depend on their parents to supply protective gear.
Actually, improvements are being made in this area as we speak, because of new technology and improvements in Army procurement.
[Jack Kelly has the facts here.](http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0805/jkelly082505.php3) He is the national security reporter for the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, besides being a syndicated columnist.
I’d hate to let facts get in the way of rhetoric. But there you go.
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### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [August 26, 2005, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-support-the-troops-you-support-the-war/318561/40 "2005-08-26T10:43:15Z")
How entirely splendid, **Moto**! Something that shouldn’t have happened in the first place is being attended to! Peachy! A pity it couldn’t have been dealt with about, say, two or three years ago, but heck! you are dragged to war by the President you’ve got, not by the one you wish you had.
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