# If you support the troops you support the war
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-support-the-troops-you-support-the-war/318561
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [August 25, 2005, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-support-the-troops-you-support-the-war/318561 "2005-08-25T14:12:17Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)
#### Post date: [August 26, 2005, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-support-the-troops-you-support-the-war/318561/41 "2005-08-26T13:39:27Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#):
>
> Boy \*\*lekatt \*\* pulled off a good hit and run. He sucked us in and derailed the OP. Got myself & \*\*newcrasher \*\* so pissed that we over responded and got warned and of course he doesn’t have the nerve to respond again. I suppose I should pit him now?
How you respond to posts our your choice, no one makes you over respond.
I just don’t have anything in common with the posters in this thread. I can’t understand how people can enjoy the freedoms and opportunities this country offers them while showing such disrepect. More than a million American solders fought and died to keep the freedoms they enjoy. Yet they show contempt for this country, its president, and its solders by telling them they are fighting for nothing. That if they pull out immediately the Terrorists will suddenly love us and never attack us again. That the wholesale murders that will happen is ok, just as it was in Nam. I don’t see things in this black and white format. Poor Cindy is fast becoming the Jane Fonda of the war on terrorism. I fell sorry for her.
I have not lost any nerve, and if you wish to pit me, great, make it a double or triple.
---
### Author:  [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)
#### Post date: [August 26, 2005, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-support-the-troops-you-support-the-war/318561/42 "2005-08-26T13:47:46Z")
> [@lekatt](#):
>
> I just don’t have anything in common with the posters in this thread. I can’t understand how people can enjoy the freedoms and opportunities this country offers them while showing such disrepect. More than a million American solders fought and died to keep the freedoms they enjoy. Yet they show contempt for this country, its president, and its solders by telling them they are fighting for nothing.
Nobody is fighting for our freedom now. The truth is, they ARE fighting for nothing. If you think that we can only support the troops by mindlessly supporting the nitwit that sent them off to die, then we have to agree to disagree.
---
### Author:  [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)
#### Post date: [August 26, 2005, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-support-the-troops-you-support-the-war/318561/43 "2005-08-26T13:53:22Z")
> [@lekatt](#):
>
> How you respond to posts our your choice, no one makes you over respond.
>
> I just don’t have anything in common with the posters in this thread. I can’t understand how people can enjoy the freedoms and opportunities this country offers them while showing such disrepect. More than a million American solders fought and died to keep the freedoms they enjoy. Yet they show contempt for this country, its president, and its solders by telling them they are fighting for nothing. That if they pull out immediately the Terrorists will suddenly love us and never attack us again. That the wholesale murders that will happen is ok, just as it was in Nam. I don’t see things in this black and white format. Poor Cindy is fast becoming the Jane Fonda of the war on terrorism. I fell sorry for her.
>
> I have not lost any nerve, and if you wish to pit me, great, make it a double or triple.
You’ll notice I did not pit you, I think that would have been a silly response on my part.
I did say I over responded. I admit it. My Fault. My Bad.
I was hoping you would respond to my charge that
> [@](#):
>
> you just basically went straight to McCarthyism by trying to associate her with the insurgents.
---
### Author:  [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)
#### Post date: [August 26, 2005, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-support-the-troops-you-support-the-war/318561/44 "2005-08-26T16:02:35Z")
> [@lekatt](#):
>
> Yet they show contempt for this country, its president, and its solders by telling them they are fighting for nothing.
This is the part you just don’t get. Showing contempt for the horrible decisions made by a bad president \*\*IS NOT THE SAME \*\* as showing contempt for the United States and it’s soldiers in uniform. Geoge W. Bush does not equal the United States of America! Get it now?
---
### Author:  [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)
#### Post date: [August 26, 2005, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-support-the-troops-you-support-the-war/318561/45 "2005-08-26T16:35:31Z")
> [@lekatt](#):
>
> Yet they show contempt for this country, its president, and its solders by telling them they are fighting for nothing.
What compelling national interest are we fighting for in Iraq?
Don’t say “protecting us from terrorists” because before the U.S. invaded the only terrorists in Iraq were in a small enclave in northern Iraq in an area outside of Saddam Hussein’s control. The terrorist problem in Iraq is entirely of our own manufacture.
Of course if would be in our interests to have a free and democratic Iraq as our ally, but are you paying attention at all to the news? That’s not happening. It’s not clear if there ever even was the POSSIBILITY of it happening, but even if there was, the incompetence of this administration has rendered the point moot. All we’ve succeeded in doing is producing a broken state, a chaotic haven for terrorists, and a new ally for the Islamic hardliners in Iran.
Why are good American men and women dying to build a fundamentalist Islamic state?
And yet you have the gall to accuse the people who point these facts out of being unAmerican. How dare you?
> [@](#):
>
> That if they pull out immediately the Terrorists will suddenly love us and never attack us again. That the wholesale murders that will happen is ok, just as it was in Nam.
Don’t be ridiculous. People aren’t suggesting we pull out of Iraq so that the terrorists will leave us alone. They’re suggesting we pull out of Iraq because it’s a costly, pointless diversion from the real war on terror.
Of course, now that Iraq is a festering sore, we can’t pull out abruptly without harming our interests. The best we can hope for at this point is to cobble together a workable government of some kind. The end result will probably be marginally less repressive than Saddam but signficantly more closely tied to fundamentalist Islam. A loss for us and a loss for the people of Iraq.
A Cecil said several years ago: “A damn-fool war.”
---
### Author:  [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)
#### Post date: [August 26, 2005, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-support-the-troops-you-support-the-war/318561/46 "2005-08-26T16:38:16Z")
> [@Frostillicus](#):
>
> This is the part you just don’t get. Showing contempt for the horrible decisions made by a bad president \*\*IS NOT THE SAME \*\* as showing contempt for the United States and it’s soldiers in uniform. Geoge W. Bush does not equal the United States of America! Get it now?
And amazingly enough, the same people who now bray so loudly about criticism of the President being unAmerican are the same people who spent years vilifying Bill Clinton.
I guess they didn’t care about the morale of our troops in Bosnia … .
---
### Author:  [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)
#### Post date: [August 26, 2005, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-support-the-troops-you-support-the-war/318561/47 "2005-08-26T17:01:36Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#):
>
> We aren’t fighting for anybody’s freedom; we’re fighting for Haliburton and PNAC and the Christian conservatives.
Don’t forget the Jewish neocons!
About the only major American denomination that doesn’t have a finger in the Iraq mess is the Catholics … I’ll figure out a way to shoehorn them in sooner or later!
---
### Author:  [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)
#### Post date: [August 26, 2005, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-support-the-troops-you-support-the-war/318561/48 "2005-08-26T19:06:43Z")
> [@lekatt](#):
>
> I just don’t have anything in common with the posters in this thread.
\
> [@lekatt](#):
>
> More than a million American solders fought and died to keep the freedoms they enjoy. Yet they show contempt for this country, its president, and its solders by telling them they are fighting for nothing.
I see it as glorifying those veterans by _exercising_ those freedoms they fought for.
Or do you really believe that “They fought for our freedom, so don’t use it!” actually makes sense?
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### Author:  [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)
#### Post date: [August 26, 2005, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-support-the-troops-you-support-the-war/318561/49 "2005-08-26T21:31:05Z")
> [@lekatt](#):
>
> I just don’t have anything in common with the posters in this thread. I can’t understand how people can enjoy the freedoms and opportunities this country offers them while showing such disrepect. More than a million American solders fought and died to keep the freedoms they enjoy. Yet they show contempt for this country, its president, and its solders by telling them they are fighting for nothing.
Stating the truth is not “contempt,” and ad hominem arguments are stupid.
---
### Author:  [@JonScribe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonScribe)
#### Post date: [August 26, 2005, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-support-the-troops-you-support-the-war/318561/50 "2005-08-26T22:50:45Z")
> [@lekatt](#):
>
> How you respond to posts our (sic) your choice, no one makes you over respond.
And no one makes you fail to respond. **Lekatt** , you were called on several of your initial statements by a number of posters and still have declined to answer for them. We’re waiting. Patiently.
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### Author:  [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)
#### Post date: [August 26, 2005, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-support-the-troops-you-support-the-war/318561/51 "2005-08-26T23:33:08Z")
> [@lekatt](#):
>
> … I can’t understand…
At least you are aware of your limitations. That is a start.
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### Author:  [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)
#### Post date: [August 27, 2005, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-support-the-troops-you-support-the-war/318561/52 "2005-08-27T08:24:11Z")
It is much more important fore the President of the United States to respect **us** than it is for us to respect him. He is our servant, not our king. We seem to have lost sight of that somewhere.
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### Author:  [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)
#### Post date: [August 27, 2005, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-support-the-troops-you-support-the-war/318561/53 "2005-08-27T10:46:07Z")
Folks, please listen to the voice of experience here. Pitting lekatt won’t do any good because he doesn’t venture into the Pit.
My brother served in the Army and was on active duty in Germany during operation Desert Storm. He was recommended for West Point and I am very proud of my brother’s service. Some of my closest and dearest friends are ex-military, including one who makes his living writing military fiction. In fact I’m now at the point where if someone is ex-Navy I consider it a strong point in his or her favor since so many of my friends have been ex-Navy. I also tried to join the Air Force, got talked into applying to be an officer, and was turned down because of the Graham-Rudman budget cuts. Needless to say, I support our troops completely.
I have also opposed this war from the beginning and will continue to do so. There are many reasons I did so, including suspecting that it would turn out to be the quagmire it’s become and that it would make America less safe. By invading a sovreign nation without apparent provocation, we’ve done nothing but give people more reasons to hate us. It’s easy for leaders in the Arab world to make America into a scapegoat and blame us for all the ills in the world. That was true during the days when Iran was run by the US supported Shah, and that’s even more true now that we have invaded Iraq. To me, the lives of the young men and women who volunteered to defend our country are being endangered unnecessarily and to support our President’s hubris. I supported the war in Afghanistan, and I believe it was a necessary response to a direct attack on this country. I do not support the war in Iraq; indeed, in terms of supporting terrorists, we have far more grounds to attack Saudi Arabia.
I’m a U.S. citizen by choice, and I’m proud of it. (I was naturalized at 21.) I will stake my patriotism against anyone out there’s, and I was prepared to serve and gave it my best shot. That said, this is indeed a damn-fool war, started by a damn-fool president. I support our troups completely, and I’d like to see something done to the people who sent them into Iraq without adequate armor for themselves and their vehicles. I even supported, whole-heartedly, initial Persian Gulf War, and I wish we’d finished the job then. I do not and cannot support this war.
Respectfully,
CJ
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### Author:  [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)
#### Post date: [August 27, 2005, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-support-the-troops-you-support-the-war/318561/54 "2005-08-27T13:47:30Z")
> [@Frostillicus](#):
>
> Showing contempt for the horrible decisions made by a bad president \*\*IS NOT THE SAME \*\* as showing contempt for the United States and it’s soldiers in uniform. Geoge W. Bush does not equal the United States of America! Get it now?
Oddly enough, conservatives like **lekatt** seemed to get this distinction perfectly well when Bill Clinton was President.
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### Author:  [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)
#### Post date: [August 27, 2005, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-support-the-troops-you-support-the-war/318561/55 "2005-08-27T19:03:21Z")
> [@jshore](#):
>
> Oddly enough, conservatives like **lekatt** seemed to get this distinction perfectly well when Bill Clinton was President.
Lekatt is a liberal democrat, have been all my life.
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### Author:  [@JonScribe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonScribe)
#### Post date: [August 28, 2005, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-support-the-troops-you-support-the-war/318561/56 "2005-08-28T20:42:26Z")
Well, apparently you’re a liberal Democrat who choses not to defend his positions.
Turn in your ACLU card, sir.
(Shame this isn’t the pit.)
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### Author:  [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2005, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-support-the-troops-you-support-the-war/318561/57 "2005-08-30T13:07:32Z")
> [@JonScribe](#):
>
> Well, apparently you’re a liberal Democrat who choses not to defend his positions.
>
> Turn in your ACLU card, sir.
>
> (Shame this isn’t the pit.)
I stated my position and defended my position. I am an American who is grateful for the freedom I enjoy in this country. I didn’t vote for Bush, but he is the president of this great country and deserves the respect of the office. I believe he has made some mistakes also, who doesn’t make mistakes, only those who do nothing. I believe in God. I am a Liberal Democrat, not a secular fanatic Liberal Democrat. I get as much heat from the Conserative Christians as I do from the Ultra Liberals. We are in the middle of a war on terrorism because our country was attacked and innocent people killed. I hate war also, but I would do nothing to give the enemy the idea we would give up. Radical anti-war groups do just that. The fighting now centers in Iraq, when the people of Iraq gain their freedom and start helping us, the fighting may go somewhere else until the terrorists are totally defeated.
As for the ACLU, I am not a member nor wish to be one. Remember I said I believe in God, and they are trying to remove God from American society.
In my opinion they do more damage than help in this country.
Go to the pit if you wish, I will not follow and exchange temper tantrams with you. I am an adult.
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### Author:  [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2005, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-support-the-troops-you-support-the-war/318561/58 "2005-08-30T13:27:37Z")
> [@lekatt](#):
>
> We are in the middle of a war on terrorism because our country was attacked and innocent people killed.
We stopped being in the middle of a war on terrorism the minute that Bush decided to use 9/11 as an excuse to invade Iraq, a country that had nothing to do with 9/11, because of some bizzare neo-conservative need for a pissing contest with a literal nobody, Saddam Hussein.
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### Author:  [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2005, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-support-the-troops-you-support-the-war/318561/59 "2005-08-30T14:05:50Z")
> [@lekatt](#):
>
> We are in the middle of a war on terrorism because our country was attacked and innocent people killed. I hate war also, but I would do nothing to give the enemy the idea we would give up. Radical anti-war groups do just that. The fighting now centers in Iraq, when the people of Iraq gain their freedom and start helping us, the fighting may go somewhere else until the terrorists are totally defeated.
17 of the 18 hijackers who killed innocent people 4 years ago were Saudi Arabian, not Iraqi. As for the people of Iraq gaining their freedom, those who don’t follow the majority religion and those who are women actually stand to lose freedom the way the current constitution is shaping up. Why should they help us when we have invaded their country and made their lives worse?
CJ
---
### Author:  [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2005, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-support-the-troops-you-support-the-war/318561/60 "2005-08-30T14:31:53Z")
> [@contradancer](#):
>
> You know what was funny. That talk show host opened the lines and everyone that they let through disagreed with him so they stopped taking calls. It’s too late to stop this jagernaut that one lone grieving woman started. Too late. Thank god it’s happening before we lose many more thousands of soldiers, like in Vietnam.
There’s one thing that hasn’t been addressed here:
What’s a jagernaut?
Sounds like something that I did at a party the other night…
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