# If you think racism doesn't happen, you're wrong. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 17, 2014, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512 "2014-12-17T19:29:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/1 "2014-12-17T19:29:05Z")
**Fotheringay-Phipps** started [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=17985253#post17985253): > [@Have You Ever Been Mistaken for "The Help"?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-ever-been-mistaken-for-the-help/707509/1): > > [http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/obamas-reflect-personal-incidents-racial-discrimination/story?id=27636612](http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/obamas-reflect-personal-incidents-racial-discrimination/story?id=27636612) > > Apparently the Obamas have, and they believe it’s because of their race. I’m not sure. I’ve never been mistaken for a valet specifically (& that specifically is probably more common of blacks), but many times over the years people have assumed (or seemed to have assumed) I worked in various establishments in which I was shopping. > > And if you interpret any request for help (e.g. asking someone to get something down from a shelf, as in the case of Michelle Obama) as an assumption of employment at the store, then it would be a lot more. > > Anyone else have experience with this type of thing? **Fotheringay-Phipps** , this is a disgusting thread. You bloody-well know that some undefined portion of the time, black people in America are treated in ways that white people are not. Why the fuck do you find it necessary to look at a specific instance of this and “doubt” it? What the fuck will a few white people telling you, “yeah, someone once asked me for something in a grocery store” do? Somehow prove that what the Obamas claim is false? That IMHO thread is pathetic, the fact that you think it’s going to make any sort of meaningful point is pathetic, and you sir are pathetic. From the article linked: > [@](#): > > On one occasion, [Michelle Obama] said, her husband “was wearing a tuxedo at a black-tie dinner, and somebody asked him to get coffee.” > … > “Even as the first lady,” she told the magazine, “during the wonderfully publicized trip I took to Target, not highly disguised, the only person who came up to me in the store was a woman who asked me to help her take something off a shelf.” > … > She said the incidents are “the regular course of life” for African-Americans and a “challenge” for the country to overcome. The assertion is that these things are the norm. The story that, gee, lillywhite me was once asked to get a fucking box of noodles off the top shelf at the Piggly-Wiggly for someone has _no_ bearing on that assertion, and so does _ **nothing** _ but serve to illustrate how little the teller of that story _believes_ that the expressions of racism above exist. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/2 "2014-12-17T19:31:55Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > **Fotheringay-Phipps** , this is a disgusting thread. You bloody-well know that some undefined portion of the time, black people in America are treated in ways that white people are not. If only had posted something like this: > [@](#): > > …that specifically is probably more common of blacks… Oh wait, that’s in the quote in your OP. You need to chill. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/3 "2014-12-17T19:36:15Z")
(to the OP) That is not how I interpreted **F-P’s** post. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/4 "2014-12-17T19:40:23Z")
So, in **F-P** ’s mind maybe the valet thing is believable, but the rest he doubts. Sorry, but: > [@](#): > > Have You Ever Been Mistaken for “The Help”? > > Apparently the Obamas have, and they believe it’s because of their race. I’m not sure. Is pathetic. Why doubt that their stories are true? How does my personal experience as a white person being confused for “the help” have any bearing on the veracity of what the Obamas have said? ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/5 "2014-12-17T19:42:40Z")
Err… Ah, I’d say that’s the least charitable way to take **Fotheringay-Phipps** ’ post. I got the impression he was more interested in facilitating a discussion rather than ‘‘disproving’’ the Obamas with the anecdotes of white people. By ‘‘I’m not sure’’ I read an implied, ‘‘But I’m starting this thread so we can talk about it.’’ ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/6 "2014-12-17T19:44:01Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > So, in **F-P** ’s mind maybe the valet thing is believable, but the rest he doubts. > > Sorry, but: > > Is pathetic. Why doubt that their stories are true? How does my personal experience as a white person being confused for “the help” have any bearing on the veracity of what the Obamas have said? I disagree with his skepticism, and agree with you that the Obamas should be taken at their word, but I think he’s sincerely interested in the experiences of others. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/7 "2014-12-17T19:47:01Z")
So if I don’t accept every racism story by a black couple at face value, I am denying that racism exists. I will have to keep that in mind. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/8 "2014-12-17T19:50:34Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So if I don’t accept every racism story by a black couple at face value, I am denying that racism exists. I will have to keep that in mind. > > Regards, > Shodan And that’s about as gross a misrepresentation of this thread’s OP as was made by this OP about the other thread. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/9 "2014-12-17T20:01:20Z")
**Eonwe** , I think this post is much closer to deserving your vitriol: > [@Have You Ever Been Mistaken for "The Help"?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-ever-been-mistaken-for-the-help/707509/13): > > So the fuck what? These are supposed to be valid examples of racism? I guess if you spend a lot of time thinking about it and looking through that filter. To a hammer, everything looks like a friggin’ nail. > > I was asked if I was a valet a couple of years ago while waiting at an unmanned valet stand. I guess I was the victim of racial profiling (I’m white). And I’ve been asked if i worked in numerous stores as I walk up and down the aisles dressed in a dress shirt and tie. Again, I didn’t know I was supposed to be offended and feel victimized. As for Michelle being asked to get something down from a shelf, maybe it’s because she is way taller than most women and many men. Oh no, can’t be that. It must be because she’s black. > > What a couple of miserable people. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/10 "2014-12-17T20:01:49Z")
Is it this particular pair of stories, then? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/11 "2014-12-17T20:02:55Z")
Quid pro quo, Clarice. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/12 "2014-12-17T20:09:18Z")
Maybe I need to dial it back a bit, so I do apologize to **Fotheringay-Phipps** (and anyone else) for my tone . . . I’ve been uncharacteristically punchy on the boards lately. I blame it on lack of sun and holiday season stress. That said, using a black person’s discussion about experienced racism as a springboard for talking about similar (yet not) experiences that some white people may have is clueless at best. To preface it with an opinion that the (white) jury is still out on whether or not the black person’s experience is as he experienced it, with no real way to address that question . . . it stretches credulity to interpret that any way other than, “I don’t believe this kind of racism exists, and/or I don’t believe this happened to the people who say it happened to them because I just think they’re lying.” ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/13 "2014-12-17T20:15:46Z")
**iiandyiiii**. . . that’s kind of my point. Starting an OP about perceived racism, casting doubt on it, and then asking white people for their similar experiences does _nothing_ other than serve as a spring board for that sort of post. The OP implies (intentionally or not) that when a black person is mistaken for help, it is not because of his/her skin color. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/14 "2014-12-17T20:18:15Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I disagree with his skepticism, and agree with you that the Obamas should be taken at their word, but I think he’s sincerely interested in the experiences of others. I think you have a more charitable view of FPs motivations than he deserves. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/15 "2014-12-17T20:25:26Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > **iiandyiiii**. . . that’s kind of my point. Starting an OP about perceived racism, casting doubt on it, and then asking white people for their similar experiences does _nothing_ other than serve as a spring board for that sort of post. He didn’t ask “white people” for their experiences. He asked everyone on this MB. > [@](#): > > The OP implies (intentionally or not) that when a black person is mistaken for help, it is not because of his/her skin color. He explicitly said it happens to black people more than white people. You even quoted him saying that. Why are you continuing to misrepresent what was actually written with something you think was written, but which as not? ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/16 "2014-12-17T20:34:26Z")
White denial of the experiences of people of color is a real problem, but maybe threads like the one started by **FP** can be a springboard for that difficult conservation. So, ultimately, a net positive? [QUOTE=Orwell] So the fuck what? These are supposed to be valid examples of racism? I guess if you spend a lot of time thinking about it and looking through that filter. To a hammer, everything looks like a friggin’ nail. I was asked if I was a valet a couple of years ago while waiting at an unmanned valet stand. I guess I was the victim of racial profiling (I’m white). And I’ve been asked if i worked in numerous stores as I walk up and down the aisles dressed in a dress shirt and tie. Again, I didn’t know I was supposed to be offended and feel victimized. As for Michelle being asked to get something down from a shelf, maybe it’s because she is way taller than most women and many men. Oh no, can’t be that. It must be because she’s black. What a couple of miserable people. [/QUOTE] Now that’s Pit worthy. [QUOTE=Shodan] So if I don’t accept every racism story by a black couple at face value, I am denying that racism exists. [/QUOTE] There is a certain kind of person that _never_ accepts any story of racism at face value. There are certain issues, racism and sexism among them, in which a certain kind of person is inclined to discount the lived human experience of others. These people lack empathy, though generally only in this very narrow context, because ten thousand stories of personally experiencing racism do not for some reason add up to a compelling enough narrative that racism is a real problem. Neither, for some reason, do the mountains of statistics demonstrating real inequality between white people and people of color, or the scads of human behavior research studies indicating that racial prejudice, conscious or otherwise, is a real thing. They will do all sorts of mental gymnastics and engage in all manner of rationalizations to explain away injustice. Then they will chalk up their systematic denial to ‘‘not taking every story’’ at face value. Not taking a story of racism at face value is one thing. The question is, why do some people \*never \*take these stories at face value? Do we doubt our own personal perceptions so much? I think not. Everyone on the planet has an experience in which they were unjustly treated and would adamantly defend their perception as accurate. Why then do we doubt the personal perceptions of others? Why do we have so much faith in our own judgment but so little in others? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/17 "2014-12-17T20:36:19Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > That said, using a black person’s discussion about experienced racism as a springboard for talking about similar (yet not) experiences that some white people may have is clueless at best. To preface it with an opinion that the (white) jury is still out on whether or not the black person’s experience is as he experienced it, with no real way to address that question . . . it stretches credulity to interpret that any way other than, “I don’t believe this kind of racism exists, and/or I don’t believe this happened to the people who say it happened to them because I just think they’re lying.” I agree with this. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/18 "2014-12-17T20:39:55Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > I think you have a more charitable view of FPs motivations than he deserves. Maybe, but I was just going by the post, which despite the unnecessary (in my mind) skepticism, seemed like a genuine request for related stories from all Dopers. Maybe I’m just a sucker for “tell me your story about X…” threads on the Dope. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/19 "2014-12-17T20:41:37Z")
I’m as white as they come and was once racially discriminated against by a local while on vacation in the Caribbean. I was getting groceries at the local large grocery store and while browsing down the aisle heard, “Go home whitie!” by someone walking past in the opposite direction. Took my brain a few seconds to process what had just happened. An interesting and fairly unpleasant experience. So no doubt racism exists. But I can’t say I’ve much right to complain when compared to blacks or other minorities. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/20 "2014-12-17T20:49:01Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > He explicitly said it happens to black people more than white people. You even quoted him saying that. Why are you continuing to misrepresent what was actually written with something you think was written, but which as not? Why are you continuing to misrepresent what was actually written with something you think was written, but which was not? He said: > [@](#): > > I’ve never been mistaken for a valet specifically (& that specifically is probably more common of blacks) . So, probably blacks are more commonly mistaken for valets (probably). The implication is that everything else that the Obamas talk about in the article probably _isn’t_ more common for blacks than whites. I don’t think this is advanced reading comprehension. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512.md?page=2)