# If you think racism doesn't happen, you're wrong. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 17, 2014, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512 "2014-12-17T19:29:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/41 "2014-12-18T17:17:40Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I have to question the logic behind FP’s post. He seems to be arguing that as a white person he’s never experienced racism. Therefore he questions whether black people experience racism. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > No, he doesn’t question that. It does seem to be the argument he’s making with _“Apparently the Obamas have, and they believe it’s because of their race. I’m not sure. I’ve never been mistaken for a valet specifically (& that specifically is probably more common of blacks), but many times over the years people have assumed (or seemed to have assumed) I worked in various establishments in which I was shopping.”_ It’s hard to interpret this in any way other than “It wasn’t racism when it happened to me so it isn’t racism when it happened the Obamas.” I’ll grant he didn’t explicitly say this but what other point could he have been making? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/42 "2014-12-18T17:25:08Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > It does seem to be the argument he’s making with _“Apparently the Obamas have, and they believe it’s because of their race. I’m not sure. I’ve never been mistaken for a valet specifically (& that specifically is probably more common of blacks), but many times over the years people have assumed (or seemed to have assumed) I worked in various establishments in which I was shopping.”_ > > It’s hard to interpret this in any way other than “It wasn’t racism when it happened to me so it isn’t racism when it happened the Obamas.” I’ll grant he didn’t explicitly say this but what other point could he have been making? Questioning whether Obama experienced racism in the instances he talk about is not the same as question whether black people, in general, have ever experienced racism. You claimed he said the latter, which he did not. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/43 "2014-12-18T17:26:09Z")
It looks to me as though he’s acknowledging it is a disproportionately black phenomenon, but thinks Obama was implying it was “some uniquely black phenomenon.” I’m unclear why he thinks she was implying “uniquely,” given that that would make her point obviously false, when she could have been implying “disproportionately,” which would make her point one he agrees with. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/44 "2014-12-18T17:30:49Z")
Actually, check that: here’s why, I think, he used the word “uniquely”: > [@](#): > > they seemed to contain the implied premise that being assumed to be “the help” is some uniquely black phenomenon, such that any incident could routinely be attributed to racial stereotyping The problem, as I said before, is that if it’s disproportionate, either you discuss it without examples, which makes it look like you’re making it up out of whole cloth; or you discuss it with examples, with the implicit understanding that even though the general pattern holds true, any one particular example might not strictly fit the pattern. I think MO was doing the latter. I don’t think she was suggesting that it’s a uniquely black phenomenon. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/45 "2014-12-18T17:41:51Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > **Fotheringay-Phipps** started [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=17985253#post17985253): > The story that, gee, lillywhite me was once asked to get a fucking box of noodles off the top shelf at the Piggly-Wiggly for someone has _no_ bearing on that assertion, and so does _ **nothing** _ but serve to illustrate how little the teller of that story _believes_ that the expressions of racism above exist. Mrs Obama is 5’11, that’s very tall for a woman. I am often asked and often volunteer to get something off the top shelf. By no means are they assuming you’re an employee- just that you are tall and look helpful. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/46 "2014-12-18T17:45:03Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Questioning whether Obama experienced racism in the instances he talk about is not the same as question whether black people, in general, have ever experienced racism. You claimed he said the latter, which he did not. As far as his claim about being mistaken for a valet, I don’t get how in the world that is racist. Almost every valet I’ve encountered was not black. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/47 "2014-12-18T17:45:17Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > The problem, as I said before, is that if it’s disproportionate, either you discuss it without examples, which makes it look like you’re making it up out of whole cloth; or you discuss it with examples, with the implicit understanding that even though the general pattern holds true, any one particular example might not strictly fit the pattern. Or you first establish that the general pattern holds true, and then give examples. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/48 "2014-12-18T18:10:39Z")
Like I mentioned in the other topic, people seem too eager to attack the Obamas with anecdotes while not realizing that none of them do anything to disprove what they say happened to them. But when it comes to race, white privilege means you have to discount what the black people are saying so you can continue to fool yourself into thinking racism doesn’t exist ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/49 "2014-12-18T18:38:46Z")
And, with **YogSosoth** ’s entrance, the average IQ of the thread drops twenty points. Do you ever read a thread before you post? _Can_ you read a thread before you post? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/50 "2014-12-18T19:43:37Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Or you first establish that the general pattern holds true, and then give examples. There are two ways of establishing that the general pattern holds true: -A rigorous controlled study. -The sharing of anecdotes. Obviously the first way is better. However, I don’t know that it’s a fair requirement for all occasions; common human behavior is to use the second way in many circumstances. I think that’s the way Obama was using. There may be other ways to establish that the general pattern holds true; if I missed the one you think she should have used, please let me know. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/51 "2014-12-18T20:22:13Z")
Anecdotes don’t establish a general pattern. > [@](#): > > …common human behavior is to use the second way in many circumstances. I think that’s the way Obama was using. Unfortunately then the anecdotes of other people are equally valid in establishing a pattern. It doesn’t work to say “that white guy thought I was the waiter” and think it proves a pattern, because then someone can post where a black woman thought a white four star general was a waiter. The plural of anecdote is not data. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/52 "2014-12-18T20:24:30Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Anecdotes don’t establish a general pattern. Unfortunately then the anecdotes of other people are equally valid in establishing a pattern. It doesn’t work to say “that white guy thought I was the waiter” and think it proves a pattern, because then someone can post where a black woman thought a white four star general was a waiter. > > The plural of anecdote is not data. > > Regards, > Shodan I’m clear on the problem you’re describing. I’m not clear on what you’re suggesting. Are you suggesting that people should not discuss any perceived social pattern until there’s a rigorous, controlled study of the pattern? ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/53 "2014-12-18T20:38:26Z")
Well shiver me timbers I am surprised. Thank you OP for pointing out that racism happens. I was under the mistaken impression that Obamas’ first act as President was outlawing racism and that it all went away. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/54 "2014-12-18T21:09:23Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The plural of anecdote is not data. Actually that’s exactly what it is. wiki _“The expression anecdotal evidence refers to evidence from anecdotes. Because of the small sample, there is a larger chance that it may be unreliable due to cherry-picked or otherwise non-representative samples of typical cases.[1][2] Anecdotal evidence is considered dubious support of a generalized claim; it is, however, perfectly acceptable for claims regarding a particular instance. Anecdotal evidence is no more than a type description (i.e., short narrative), and is often confused in discussions with its weight, or other considerations, as to the purpose(s) for which it is used. This is true regardless of the veracity of individual claims.[3][4][5]”_ ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/55 "2014-12-18T21:15:02Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’m clear on the problem you’re describing. I’m not clear on what you’re suggesting. Are you suggesting that people should not discuss any perceived social pattern until there’s a rigorous, controlled study of the pattern? They’re free to discuss it. They are not free to get huffy when people point out that you cannot legitimately claim a pattern is demonstrated when all you have is anecdote. Or rather, they can, but don’t expect me to panic over it. Or else we can establish that there is a pattern with anecdotes, in which case we can discuss ACORN’s wrongdoings, the war on Christmas, liberal bias in the media, and so forth. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/56 "2014-12-18T21:18:34Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Actually that’s exactly what it is. No, it isn’t, no matter what wiki claims. Data are collected under controlled conditions; anecdotes aren’t. Which is why anecdotal data are dubious and less reliable. Homeopathy has anecdotal evidence, too. But no data. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/57 "2014-12-18T21:38:35Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, it isn’t, no matter what wiki claims. Data are collected under controlled conditions; anecdotes aren’t. Which is why anecdotal data are dubious and less reliable. "Which is why anecdotal\*\* data\*\* are dubious and less reliable. " I agree- they are data, but data of far less reliability. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/58 "2014-12-18T22:54:39Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > And, with **YogSosoth** ’s entrance, the average IQ of the thread drops twenty points. > > Do you ever read a thread before you post? _Can_ you read a thread before you post? I find that on this board, whenever you disagree with me, it means I just posted something relevant and intelligent. Or whatever the opposite of a hateful, bigoted, self-righteous douchebag like yourself is ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2014, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/59 "2014-12-19T00:22:37Z")
> [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > I think one of the issues that it brings up is that _because_ racism is still so prevalent in the US it will probably be inferred even in instances where it didn’t occur, and that result should be totally unsurprising. Isn’t possible that racism is _not_ “so prevalent” and rather that a lot of perceived racism is incorrectly inferred. I.E… > [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > So, you have instances where a person mistakes another person for working at a store when they don’t (it’s happenned to me and I’m pretty damn white). Obviosuly, when it happenned to me, it wasn’t because of racism. If that same person, in that same store, made the same accidental assumption about a black person, then we’d have to ask the question “was it because of racism?” So if this happens 100 times in a day and 99 times it is erroneously perceived as racist, how can anyone distinguish? You are assuming that because someone says they are treated a certain way due to their race that it is accurate. And moreover, many on this board are suggesting that only black people can properly perceive racist intent. That’s a tad disingenuous, to say the least. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2014, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/60 "2014-12-19T01:27:52Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > They’re free to discuss it. They are not free to get huffy when people point out that you cannot legitimately claim a pattern is demonstrated when all you have is anecdote. Or rather, they can, but don’t expect me to panic over it. Settle down, Sparky. Nobody is expecting panic. > [@](#): > > Or else we can establish that there is a pattern with anecdotes, in which case we can discuss ACORN’s wrongdoings, the war on Christmas, liberal bias in the media, and so forth. You can absolutely discuss such things–who on earth suggested you can’t? I agree with you that anecdote is inferior to rigorous controlled study. I don’t think that anecdote is worthless for demonstrating a pattern; rather, it’s a starting point for discussion. If you disagree with the pattern demonstrated by anecdote, it behooves you to show a countervailing pattern, using anecdotal evidence at least as solid as that used in the first place. For example, if you want to talk about the war on Christmas using anecdotes, I’ve got a metric buttload of anecdotes showing the lack of a war on behalf of Christmas; start a thread and I’ll share. In this case, I’m unclear if anyone is arguing that this phenomenon isn’t disproportionately experienced by black people. Is that your claim? It doesn’t appear to be FP’s claim. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512.md?page=4)