# If you think racism doesn't happen, you're wrong. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 17, 2014, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512 "2014-12-17T19:29:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2014, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/61 "2014-12-19T01:45:12Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Questioning whether Obama experienced racism in the instances he talk about is not the same as question whether black people, in general, have ever experienced racism. You claimed he said the latter, which he did not. If he was just talking about the Obama experience, it might have been just about their experience. But FP brought his own experience into the conversation as a comparison. And that means he’s talking about being mistaken for “the help” as a general class of experiences not just the one instance that occurred to Michelle Obama. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2014, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/62 "2014-12-19T01:51:36Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Or you first establish that the general pattern holds true, and then give examples. > [@Shodan](#): > > Anecdotes don’t establish a general pattern. Unfortunately then the anecdotes of other people are equally valid in establishing a pattern. > [@Shodan](#): > > They’re free to discuss it. They are not free to get huffy when people point out that you cannot legitimately claim a pattern is demonstrated when all you have is anecdote. Or rather, they can, but don’t expect me to panic over it. > [@Shodan](#): > > No, it isn’t, no matter what wiki claims. Data are collected under controlled conditions; anecdotes aren’t. Which is why anecdotal data are dubious and less reliable. Just so we’re clear, are you agreeing with the OP that Fotheringay-Phipps’ argument was bad? Because that seems to be the point you’re making. His argument was it happened to him and it wasn’t racist - in other words his argument is based on a single personal anecdote which he then uses as the basis of a general pattern. This is what I’m getting from reading the above posts. But I’m difficulty thinking that’s what you mean. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2014, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/63 "2014-12-19T13:41:07Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Just so we’re clear, are you agreeing with the OP that Fotheringay-Phipps’ argument was bad? **Fotheringay-Phipps** ’s anecdotes are just as valuable as Obama’s, and go just as far. His argument is better, because Obama is saying that being mistaken for the help gives an insight into being black that might otherwise be missed. The fact that many white people have had the same experience (as well as the amusing cite of the black staffer in the Obama administration mistaking a white four-star general for a waiter) shows that this is nothing unique to the black experience. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2014, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/64 "2014-12-19T14:41:25Z")
But his argument is still based on a personal anecdote. To the degree he looks at the general pattern, FP acknowledges blacks and whites are treated differently (“that specifically is probably more common of blacks”). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2014, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/65 "2014-12-19T14:47:48Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > If he was just talking about the Obama experience, it might have been just about their experience. But FP brought his own experience into the conversation as a comparison. And that means he’s talking about being mistaken for “the help” as a general class of experiences not just the one instance that occurred to Michelle Obama. No, it doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2014, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/66 "2014-12-19T14:50:48Z")
MO has no better insight on what one particular person thinks of racism than anyone else does (though I agree she might in general). The thing I think is being overlooked in this thread is that the average person might not be as keen to what she looks like as would be expected. I know what she looks like (because of my general interest) but couldn’t pick Taylor Swift out of a line up to save my life. In fact, unless it impacts them directly, the average person can be quite clueless to apparently obvious facts: [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlr-YPTxN6w) I have no opinion of F-Ps post as it relates to racism. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2014, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/67 "2014-12-19T14:58:55Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But his argument is still based on a personal anecdote. To the degree he looks at the general pattern, FP acknowledges blacks and whites are treated differently (“that specifically is probably more common of blacks”). > [@John\_Mace](#): > > No, it doesn’t. On second thought, you’re right. When someone says “& that specifically is probably more common of blacks”, they mean that it never happens to blacks. I guess you’re just way better at reading plain text than I am. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2014, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/68 "2014-12-19T15:31:37Z")
> [@White SIFL](#): > > The thing I think is being overlooked in this thread is that the average person might not be as keen to what she looks like as would be expected. I know what she looks like (because of my general interest) but couldn’t pick Taylor Swift out of a line up to save my life. I think Ms. Obama said that she was “disguised” somehow during the incident she mentions, so I don’t think it is much of “how dare she ask me, the FIRST LADY, to help her” so much as “how dare she ask me, a BLACK LADY, to help her”. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2014, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/69 "2014-12-19T17:10:48Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I think Ms. Obama said that she was “disguised” somehow during the incident she mentions, so I don’t think it is much of “how dare she ask me, the FIRST LADY, to help her” so much as “how dare she ask me, a BLACK LADY, to help her”. > > Regards, > Shodan Actually, going back I see that she said she was “not heavily disguised”. Which is a bit of a weasel argument. And there is a picture of her, too. Now, that picture doesn’t scream “OMG, it’s Michelle Obama” to me. I’m used to seeing her in elegant gowns, as is her “job” as First Lady, and when you see someone out of context like that, it’s easy to not see the familiar. I think it’s disingenuous for MB to say in effect, “I only disguised myself a little bit, and this one lady didn’t recognize me, therefore RACISM!”. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2014, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/70 "2014-12-19T17:20:00Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Actually, going back I see that she said she was “not heavily disguised”. Which is a bit of a weasel argument. And there is a picture of her, too. Now, that picture doesn’t scream “OMG, it’s Michelle Obama” to me. I’m used to seeing her in elegant gowns, as is her “job” as First Lady, and when you see someone out of context like that, it’s easy to not see the familiar. > > I think it’s disingenuous for MB to say in effect, “I only disguised myself a little bit, and this one lady didn’t recognize me, therefore RACISM!”. Is MB Michelle Obama? If so, I don’t think she accused anyone of racism. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2014, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/71 "2014-12-19T18:04:54Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Is MB Michelle Obama? If so, I don’t think she accused anyone of racism. Yeah, It’s Michelle Bama. 🙂 My bad… Here’s what she said: > [@](#): > > She said the incidents are “the regular course of life” for African-Americans and a “challenge” for the country to overcome. What “challenge” do you think she was referring to? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2014, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/72 "2014-12-19T18:12:43Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Yeah, It’s Michelle Bama. 🙂 My bad… > > Here’s what she said: > > What “challenge” do you think she was referring to? I suppose the challenge of being more likely to be assumed to be an employee or menial worker. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2014, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/73 "2014-12-19T18:30:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I suppose the challenge of being more likely to be assumed to be an employee or menial worker. Regardless of your race? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/74 "2014-12-19T18:47:41Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Actually, going back I see that she said she was “not heavily disguised”. Which is a bit of a weasel argument. And there is a picture of her, too. Now, that picture doesn’t scream “OMG, it’s Michelle Obama” to me. I’m used to seeing her in elegant gowns, as is her “job” as First Lady, and when you see someone out of context like that, it’s easy to not see the familiar. > > I think it’s disingenuous for MB to say in effect, “I only disguised myself a little bit, and this one lady didn’t recognize me, therefore RACISM!”. I think the point of Ms. Obama saying that she was “not heavily disguised” is to say “see how easily people slip into racism - it doesn’t take much of a disguise to relegate me back into a subservient role”. I agree that it was disingenuous. I’m surprised the old lady made it past the Secret Service to ask Ms. Obama for help. Now _that_ would be a good story - “I just asked that nice colored lady to help me reach a package. Next thing I know I was in handcuffs and Homeland Security was waterboarding me about a plot to assassinate Seth Rogan!” Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2014, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/75 "2014-12-19T18:51:52Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Regardless of your race? :dubious: She specified for African Americans (or was answering a question about African Americans), right? My point being, associating African Americans with X is not necessarily racist, unless X is an intrinsically bad thing (violence, untrustworthiness, low intelligence, etc.). If someone assumes a person likes rap music, or likes basketball, because they’re black, that might be silly, but it’s not necessarily racist. If someone assumes a person is a cab driver because they’re from southern Asia, that might be silly, but it’s not necessarily racist (being a cab drive is not an intrinsically bad thing). It might be – someone might believe that cab drivers are all worthless, in which case such an assumption might be racist. But it might just be a silly nuisance. So I’m not sure exactly how MO feels about this, other than it’s a “challenge”. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2014, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/76 "2014-12-19T19:05:40Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > She specified for African Americans (or was answering a question about African Americans), right? > > My point being, associating African Americans with X is not necessarily racist, unless X is an intrinsically bad thing (violence, untrustworthiness, low intelligence, etc.). If someone assumes a person likes rap music, or likes basketball, because they’re black, that might be silly, but it’s not necessarily racist. If someone assumes a person is a cab driver because they’re from southern Asia, that might be silly, but it’s not necessarily racist (being a cab drive is not an intrinsically bad thing). > > It might be – someone might believe that cab drivers are all worthless, in which case such an assumption might be racist. But it might just be a silly nuisance. > > So I’m not sure exactly how MO feels about this, other than it’s a “challenge”. So, in an interview she gave to a magazine to discuss her and her family’s experience with racism, she decided to tell an anecdote that had nothing to do with racism. Got it. Did you read the article in the OP’s quote? > [@](#): > > President and Michelle Obama personally identify with everyday **experiences of racial bias** in America that have underpinned recent protests across the country, they told People magazine in an interview to be released Friday. Emphasis added. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2014, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/77 "2014-12-19T19:16:20Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > So, in an interview she gave to a magazine to discuss her and her family’s experience with racism, she decided to tell an anecdote that had nothing to do with racism. Got it. From what I understand about magazines and journalism in general, it’s the editors who determine what an article/interview is “about” – meaning the question might have been (and feel free to prove me wrong – I definitely might be wrong here!) “tell me about being black in America”, while the editor made the article about racism in America. Or not. But I’d have to see the full quote in context with the specific question included (or see a recording of the interview) to be confident that I could conclude that MO was saying that the assumption that she worked at Target was racist. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2014, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/78 "2014-12-19T19:39:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > She specified for African Americans (or was answering a question about African Americans), right? > > My point being, associating African Americans with X is not necessarily racist, unless X is an intrinsically bad thing (violence, untrustworthiness, low intelligence, etc.). If someone assumes a person likes rap music, or likes basketball, because they’re black, that might be silly, but it’s not necessarily racist. If someone assumes a person is a cab driver because they’re from southern Asia, that might be silly, but it’s not necessarily racist (being a cab drive is not an intrinsically bad thing). > > It might be – someone might believe that cab drivers are all worthless, in which case such an assumption might be racist. But it might just be a silly nuisance. > > So I’m not sure exactly how MO feels about this, other than it’s a “challenge”. Way I look at it is this: Believing a Black person like President Obama wearing a tux in a fancy restaurant is more likely to be a waiter than a customer because he is Black is an example of sterotyping (something we all tend to do a bit of all the time, and are rightly embarrased about when we are wrong). Believing a Black person like President Obama ought to be a waiter, or some other relatively low-level worker, rather than President of the United States, because he is Black is racism. The person who does the first (that is, mistakes the President in a tux for a waiter) is guilty of a _faux pas_, made all the more embarrasing by the fraught history of race relations in America, but is hardly guilty of a malicious act. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2014, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/79 "2014-12-19T19:51:10Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > She specified for African Americans (or was answering a question about African Americans), right? > > My point being, associating African Americans with X is not necessarily racist, unless X is an intrinsically bad thing (violence, untrustworthiness, low intelligence, etc.). If someone assumes a person likes rap music, or likes basketball, because they’re black, that might be silly, but it’s not necessarily racist. If someone assumes a person is a cab driver because they’re from southern Asia, that might be silly, but it’s not necessarily racist (being a cab drive is not an intrinsically bad thing). > > It might be – someone might believe that cab drivers are all worthless, in which case such an assumption might be racist. But it might just be a silly nuisance. > > So I’m not sure exactly how MO feels about this, other than it’s a “challenge”. Actually [Michelle Obama described the incident very differently previously](“That’s my Target run. I went to Target,” she said. "I thought I was undercover. I have to tell you something about this trip though. No one knew that was me because a woman actually walked up to me, right? I was in the detergent aisle, and she said — I kid you not — she said, ‘Excuse me, I just have to ask you something,’ and I thought, ‘Oh, cover’s blown.’ She said, ‘Can you reach on that shelf and hand me the detergent?’ I kid you not.”) (to David Letterman, apparently) - > [@](#): > > “That’s my Target run. I went to Target,” she said. "I thought I was undercover. I have to tell you something about this trip though. No one knew that was me because a woman actually walked up to me, right? I was in the detergent aisle, and she said — I kid you not — she said, ‘Excuse me, I just have to ask you something,’ and I thought, ‘Oh, cover’s blown.’ She said, ‘Can you reach on that shelf and hand me the detergent?’ I kid you not.” > > As the audience laughed, she went on, “And the only thing she said — I reached up, ’cause she was short, and I reached up, pulled it down — she said, ‘Well, you didn’t have to make it look so easy.’ That was my interaction. I felt so good. … She had no idea who I was. I thought, as soon as she walked up — I was with my assistant, and I said, ‘This is it, it’s over. We’re going to have to leave.’ She just needed the detergent.” Which is quite different from taking it as an evidence of daily racism. “I felt so good”. “She just needed the detergent.” “She was short”. Not quite the same thing as This Will Show White America What Us Poor Black Folks Have to Put Up With. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2014, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512/80 "2014-12-19T20:30:24Z")
The thing about using anecdotes as evidence is that its valuable depending on the type of argument you’re trying to present. If one’s argument is that racism exists and here’s an anecdote, then it is absolutely 100% correct to use that anecdote. Technically, all you need to prove that someone exists is one instance of that thing occurring; Obama’s anecdote does that. What anecdotes don’t usually do is serve as _ **evidence of a trend** _ in the face of larger statistical evidence. Only racists are trying to decry Obama by simultaneously contending that there’s no evidence for racism and that his anecdotes don’t prove a trend. That is neither what Obama’s story does or what he is trying to do. When there is both a statistical evidence of a trend and anecdotes, the anecdotes aren’t just irrelevant data points, they are examples to back up the data. In this case, we all know there is a lot of evidence for institutionalized racism. Take any sample consisting of economic status, prisoner population, education, instances where people get killed by police, and you’ll find hard evidence of existing white privilege vs. the negatives that blacks and other minorities have to go through. This is fact. Telling an anecdote in this case is simply trying to back that up with something that resonates emotionally with people and is a better catalyst for change than numbers in a chart. I have no doubt that both Obamas know what they are talking about, that the stories they related are not simply mistakes based on height or dress, but that skin color played a huge role in mistaken identity. Only those with a partisan conservative agenda\* just know \*that they were both mistaken [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-racism-doesnt-happen-youre-wrong/707512.md?page=5)